NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

From The Scotsman live reporting:

11:06 BST
There is a slight delay to proceedings as there is a hearing being held in private this morning.
Journalists have been told this will be a case management discussion and no witnesses are allowed into these types of discussions.
Hopefully the public session will get underway shortly.

This sounds more promising than I expected. Trying not to get my hopes up too high for a public cross exam though.

No, but their evidence carries less weight.

My current theory is that Ms Searle is refusing to take the stand as Dr Upton has told her it's an execution chair.

And she's believed him.

Hence the very long wait ....

You can be transgender and straight (attracted to the same gender)...

What I meant by quiet part out loud is that if you are straight then you would attracted to the opposite 'gender'. The statement reveals that the writer doesn't believe that gender identity makes you an actual woman or man. It's a sex realist statement. But fucking mind boggling to unravel.

Breakfast is over. We can start now.

Maybe Upton comes to his senses and says 'You know what, it would be much easier if I just used the other room since I'm making women uncomfortable'

No, it means that the panel can draw their conclusions from the evidence to date.

It's the IT guy first before Kate Searle Day, right?

Which side is he supposed to be for?

https://x.com/j4ppleby/status/1947603694788173886

"[KS sworn in]
JR Can we take a short break
J Yes

Case Management doesn't usually take this long.

DU cannot talk to KS about this case at all.

I say! I resent that implication wholeheartedly!

If they take Kate Searle’s evidence in private I will stage a sit-in at that tribunal. 🤬🤬🤬

I’ve been perched on my stool with my knitting needles at the ready all morning, like one of those grand dames in the front row at a guillotining during the French Revolution.

"Oh women are entitled to same sex facilities? My bad. Of course I'll get changed with the lads then - I wouldn't want to force my presence onto women illegally or if they are uncomfortable."

Having thought very hard about it across the course of these threads, I've come to the conclusion that there is gender identity for everyone and I do indeed have one.

I'm rheopectic non-Newtonian.

That seems a bit unreasonable if there is no opportunity to the opposing side to challenge their statement and potentially undermine what they wrote.

Another definition from NHS Fife website (sexual health section)

What does Queer mean?
This means a lot of different things to different people.
This can be a sexual orientation and/or a gender identity.
Some people use it because they are attracted to more than two different genders and bisexuality implies there are only two genders - male and female.
Some people prefer to use the terms non-binary, genderqueer, agender or bigender.
Some people use it because they do not want people to know who they find attractive.
Some people use it because they are questioning their sexual orientation.
Some people use it because they find other identities too restrictive.
Some people use it to reclaim the term from people who use it to be homophobic/abusive.
Some people find the term offensive because it is word often used in homophobic abuse.
Queer identity is used by some people in addition to other orientations and identities in the LGBTQI spectrum.

Hmmm, have I been dealing with this wrongly all along? If I haven't wanted people at work to know who I find attractive, I just haven't mentioned it . . .

@Butchyrestingface I feel ROBBED of the laughing emoji re your knitting post

I can see that too, but if I run my trackpad around the screen, the sidebar button comes back again. I think we just haven't been allowed in for this long without them turning the camera on, so we aren't used to seein the screen go into sleep mode, or whatever it is.

Non-binary, genderqueer, agender and bigender all mean someone who does not identify as male or female.

The panel would be entitled to draw very serious adverse inferences about the evidence that witness gave; as if every single cross examination question was answered in favour of the cross examining side, I think.

What do non-binary, genderqueer, agender and bigender mean?
These are a gender identities and/or gender expressions.
Binary means a system of two different things. Male and female are binary genders.
Non-binary, genderqueer, agender and bigender all mean someone who does not identify as male or female.
Some people prefer to use the term queer.
Being non-binary, genderqueer, agender or bigender has nothing to do with who you find attractive.
You can be non-binary and straight, or gay, or lesbian, or queer, or many other identities.
Are there other gender identities, gender expressions and sexual orientations?
Yes! A list of LGBTQI+ terms can be found on the <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/706yG/itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2013/01/a-comprehensive-list-of-lgbtq-term-definitions/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">IPM (It's Pronounced Metrosexual) website.

In the future the acronym MFFU will be used to work out the extent of the FU. The first F of course stands for Fife.

“ Gosh Jeremy, this is serious, it’s not just a standard FU, or even a MFU, it’s looking as though the damn thing will escalate to a MFFU. I advise you to take a ferry and lose your phone, delete all emails, check your desk for any anonymous pieces of paper that someone has put there while your back was turned and shred. Oh and and draft yourself a new cv, there’s a good chap.”

One of my favourite old memes (hopefully the image posts).

It's how I envision NHS Fife. Alas, they are not adorable but inept Golden Retrievers.

The full bundle isn't available online.