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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

1000 replies

nauticant · 21/07/2025 14:55

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

OP posts:
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31
BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 16:07

Very much looking forward to Kate Searle tomorrow, wish I could watch. Would very much appreciate any live viewers observations during the breaks as allowed.

For cricket 🏏 comparisons I reckon KS is fielding at Silly Mid Off tomorrow.

That is to say, dangerous balls or batting from each side, needs a helmet and unless you've got some really clever spin, unlikely to score a catch.

oldwomanwhoruns · 21/07/2025 16:07

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:03

Kate Searle tomorrow!

'And now, Ms Searle, about that email you sent to the world & his wife, condemning Sandy without even attempting to get her side of the story...' 😂

maltravers · 21/07/2025 16:09

FleurFloor · 21/07/2025 15:36

Absolutely horrendous.

A comment that no one reported and the people in question do not recall and have no wish to follow up. But they felt the need to put it into public domain.

I assume this is for the BBC, the Metro, the Guardian etc, to give them some headlines that will draw fire from NHS Fife.

murasaki · 21/07/2025 16:10

If KS doesn't turn up then the judge can infer something from that, presumably.

I think she will, and come out fighting. I can't see how she can come out of this at all well, but bring it on.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 21/07/2025 16:11

GreenFriedTomato · 21/07/2025 15:37

JR: And homophobic comments?
CM: Just told she disapproved of ppl being gay - was told unhappy bcs her daughter gay - but I don't know at all.

Pure gossip. I'm sure Sandie and her daughter will be very unhappy about this

Smacks of misheard or misunderstood conversation.

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 16:12

I think one of the observers in Dundee mentioned last week that there is noone from NHS Fife in the Tribunal to brief JR. I suppose they & DU might be watching online and then instructing in breaks? Or maybe not.

What happens if one or both clients are out of touch?
Does JR have to take instruction from both her clients and get them to agree? Or if one is silent can she take instruction from the other?

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:12

FannyCann · 21/07/2025 16:07

Is it at all possible/likely that Kate Searle is sticking by the rules and not following the action, that she doesn't know she is well and truly cooked?
She must be feeling not unlike Anne Boleyn on the night before her execution, albeit without the (admittedly very small) consolation of knowing she did nothing wrong.

I'd lay a fairly generous bet that she'll be a No Show tomorrow, and call in sick (not sure what the rules are for witnesses calling in sick but in all honesty she probably really will be). Though I'd say it hardly matters. True we will all miss out on the massive dose of schadenfreude watching (not literally, but via TT and other sources) her being eviscerated, hung drawn and quartered by Naomi, but the damage is all done already. The evidence is there. There's not a single thing she can say to make matters any better for anyone, herself, DU, or anyone else at NHS Fife.

I was surprised at Maya publishing her transcript of the smoking gun email, in fact I'm surprised it was allowed legally. On balance I think it would have been better if she hadn't - it will certainly be an added reason why KS may cry off tomorrow, and she could publish it later anyway.

Anyone know how old KS is? I'm thinking a prolonged period off sick for stress could possibly segue into early retirement. That would be my preferred option in her shoes, but then in her shoes I wouldn't have sent that email.

It was so important that she did! And the bundle is available to the public via a link which Maya also included so perfectly reasonable for her to do that. It is no different from a journo doing it...sadly they didn't.

The reason is that this is vitally important information in the public interest. This idea that an ideology can take hold of management like this is extraordinary and effects all of us in lots of indirect ways. It needs to be transparent and NHS Fife don't want it to be.

Whilst none of us would like to see our mistakes aired in this way this is more than a mistake. Much more.

Given that they'd not submitted this with the initial disclosure I think they were also hoist by their own petard from that point.

CriticalCondition · 21/07/2025 16:13

I wish TT had reported this bit more fully. JR was really pressing CM hard on this. CM made it clear that when she asked ED to elaborate on this alleged use of the P word, ED had paused and couldn't tell her anything more. Except that the 'victim' , a consultant doctor, couldn't remember it. CM was clear she didn't know when or even if the consultant had been approached by anyone from 'legal' to investigate.

Disgraceful from JR.

BettyBooper · 21/07/2025 16:13

murasaki · 21/07/2025 16:10

If KS doesn't turn up then the judge can infer something from that, presumably.

I think she will, and come out fighting. I can't see how she can come out of this at all well, but bring it on.

I think KS probably thinks her actions have been entirely justified given SPs absolutely, categorically, unjustifiable behaviour that is akin to literal genocide. 🙄

Llamasarellovely · 21/07/2025 16:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:15

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:12

It was so important that she did! And the bundle is available to the public via a link which Maya also included so perfectly reasonable for her to do that. It is no different from a journo doing it...sadly they didn't.

The reason is that this is vitally important information in the public interest. This idea that an ideology can take hold of management like this is extraordinary and effects all of us in lots of indirect ways. It needs to be transparent and NHS Fife don't want it to be.

Whilst none of us would like to see our mistakes aired in this way this is more than a mistake. Much more.

Given that they'd not submitted this with the initial disclosure I think they were also hoist by their own petard from that point.

But won't the email be discussed tomorrow anyway?

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/07/2025 16:15

Sandie's daughter:

Jeez do I need to go back under oath to clear this up 😝
My mum is my best friend, has and always will be. Her only concern is if I’m happy

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1947308995045212603

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1947308995045212603

Flashout · 21/07/2025 16:17

KS better have a box and helmet strapped on tight tomorrow.

murasaki · 21/07/2025 16:17

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/07/2025 16:15

Sandie's daughter:

Jeez do I need to go back under oath to clear this up 😝
My mum is my best friend, has and always will be. Her only concern is if I’m happy

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1947308995045212603

Yes, trying to ruin a family relationship based on absolutely nothing in court and in front of hundreds is not a good look.

JR is a total shit.

Charabanc · 21/07/2025 16:17

yourhairiswinterfire · 21/07/2025 16:15

Sandie's daughter:

Jeez do I need to go back under oath to clear this up 😝
My mum is my best friend, has and always will be. Her only concern is if I’m happy

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1947308995045212603

And look at Nicole's colours 💜💚

(Can't do a white heart on here)

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:18

CriticalCondition · 21/07/2025 16:13

I wish TT had reported this bit more fully. JR was really pressing CM hard on this. CM made it clear that when she asked ED to elaborate on this alleged use of the P word, ED had paused and couldn't tell her anything more. Except that the 'victim' , a consultant doctor, couldn't remember it. CM was clear she didn't know when or even if the consultant had been approached by anyone from 'legal' to investigate.

Disgraceful from JR.

It was awful even as recorded by TT. There was absolutely no need to try and draw this out as it had already been firmly established that it was just gossip with no substance. Definitely JR desperate to feed the beasts outwith the TT and give them something to use to further trash SP in the court of public opinion. By getting the witness to make those claims on the stand it becomes entirely legitimate for Guardian to headline...tribunal hears of nurse calling dr a 'P...'.

FFS. I hope the panel punishes her for that when the time comes.

Good questions from the J though.

SionnachRuadh · 21/07/2025 16:18

GreenFriedTomato · 21/07/2025 16:00

I'm starting wondering JR and NC have formed a secret coalition. JR is making NHS Fife look worse every day

There are moments when I wonder if JR is a mole. I've never seen her in a Washington Generals jersey, but...

nauticant · 21/07/2025 16:19

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I don't think it's a good idea to have that in the thread and I think it would be best for it to be deleted.

OP posts:
murasaki · 21/07/2025 16:21

nauticant · 21/07/2025 16:19

I don't think it's a good idea to have that in the thread and I think it would be best for it to be deleted.

I agree. If we're saying don't go after Sandie's family that applies to JR's.

KnottyAuty · 21/07/2025 16:21

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Well if she has, JR needs to act impartially.
She has been appointed to defend GC views and networks by the Environment Agency so will be switching sides later this year/next summer.
So let's see how she goes then?
https://x.com/AnnMSinnott/status/1943051183729361215

https://x.com/AnnMSinnott/status/1943051183729361215

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:21

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:15

But won't the email be discussed tomorrow anyway?

Of course. But it won't be published in full during the testimony. NC will repeat elements of it which probably won't be transcribed by TT as they usually just summarise or mention the document being referred to. There's nothing wrong in the public knowing in advance what the material under discussion will be.

Signalbox · 21/07/2025 16:21

Michael Foran saying that today's evidence re ED accusing SP of being racist/homophobic is probably harmful for Fife...

https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1947257422248325322

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35
BettyBooper · 21/07/2025 16:22

From Boswelltoday on X

“Spiteful Tittle-Tattle”: A Manager’s Admission of Ignorance, and an Institution’s Abdication of Duty

The afternoon cross-examination of Charlotte Myles stripped away any illusion that Sandy Peggie’s suspension had been based on evidence. It revealed instead a disturbing truth: that an NHS manager with no prior relationship to the nurse, no understanding of her beliefs, and no access to foundational documents had been allowed to shape the course of her professional fate - with little more than gossip, confusion, and blind deference to policy.

Myles’ admission that she had not reviewed the original suspension documents before conducting her risk assessment should have ended the matter. Yet she proceeded to reinstate Peggie’s return under restrictive conditions, claiming she was satisfied there was “no risk” - then later reversed that position, citing rota complications. In reality, her testimony showed no coherent reasoning at all - only an opportunistic toggling between process justifications and personal instinct.

Pressed on the alleged racist and homophobic remarks, Myles confirmed the details were absent or unverifiable. The doctor supposedly targeted by a racial slur had no recollection of it. No dates, no statements, no incident forms - just ambient accusation, repeated and reused. Myles described it as “spiteful tittle-tattle,” yet allowed it to inform her framing of Peggie’s case. Her claim to neutrality collapsed under its own contradictions.

Even the documents she relied upon were a mystery to her. She could not say whether her risk assessment drew from the formal Datix report, the “hate incident” statement, or an anonymous summary left on her desk without attribution. She didn’t ask. She didn’t verify. She didn’t remember. Yet from this fog, she signed off on conditions that implied Peggie was a threat.

Her approach to the changing room issue exposed even more. Myles confirmed that roughly 200 women used the shared female space - yet saw no problem in permitting a trans-identifying male colleague to access it. She acknowledged there was no remaining guarantee of single-sex privacy. When asked whether women with religious or trauma-based needs could safely raise objections, Myles agreed they should not have to - but offered no mechanism to protect them. The burden, unspoken but clear, was on women to absorb the discomfort in silence.

She did not know the law. She misunderstood the Equality Act. She believed that respecting gender identity overrode a woman’s right to express belief - even in a healthcare context, even about material sex. Her language veered between deflection and appeasement, but her logic was consistent: deference to the policy, at any cost to women.

And the cost was real. Peggie was displaced, monitored, and restricted - not because of what she did, but because of what she believed. Myles confirmed Peggie had never harmed a patient, had shown empathy to trans individuals, and had no prior complaints in a thirty-year career. Still, Myles upheld the view that oversight was needed - not to protect patients, but to protect the institution from further scrutiny.

By the end, the portrait was damning. Myles had neither command of the facts nor courage to dissent. She permitted hearsay to carry the weight of formal complaint and allowed policy abstractions to trump clinical reality. Her testimony did not defend her decisions. It exposed them.

The tribunal continues. But the evidence now speaks with cumulative force: in the conflict between a woman’s grounded concern and an institution’s ideological drift, NHS Fife chose expedience. It chose to move the woman. And it sent the message that in today’s NHS, the risk is not misconduct - it is noticing

Llamasarellovely · 21/07/2025 16:22

nauticant · 21/07/2025 16:19

I don't think it's a good idea to have that in the thread and I think it would be best for it to be deleted.

Yep, I've reported it myself, thanks. Don't want to derail.

MarieDeGournay · 21/07/2025 16:22

We hear you loud and clear, Nicole!💜💚Smile

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