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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

1000 replies

nauticant · 21/07/2025 14:55

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

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BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 16:22

@FannyCann It's part of open justice. Anyone can go and read the court papers/watch the tribunal as I understand it.

Quoting a document isn't fundamentally different from quoting a verbal response.

If anything, it is better in my view as it's easy for quotes to be manipulated/taken out of context to look more outrageous.

Here it's an entire email so everyone can read the whole thing and make their minds up.

DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 16:22

Some time this morning there was a link to a TRA complaining that there had been deadnaming during the course of the tribunal. I'm pretty sure that isn't true. Dr Upton has been mis-sexed by some people and mis-gendered by others - both those are legal, even if they annoy some people.

But I have not seen Dr Upton's original name being used in any of the questions and answers.

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 16:22

Is SP off sick with stress just now? If all this bad-mouthing means she can never go back, it's going to cost NHS Fife a bloody fortune in lost wages & pension. Bastards!

Boiledbeetle · 21/07/2025 16:23

GreenFriedTomato · 21/07/2025 15:56

JR has asked several witnesses now for specifics about Sandie's racist and bigoted views. Every time similar answers. Details of things she's allegedly said but all followed up with - not documented, hearsay etc.
But still she gets it in there.

Who exactly is trying to steer public opinion now ? Trying to get 'Nurse called a medic a P' 'Nurse hates her lesbian daughter' in the headlines for the court of public opinion?

So that even if she wins the case, she will forever be known as a hateful bigot.

I have lost any respect I ever had for Jane Russell.

Yep. I am disgusted by her right now.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 16:23

BeLemonNow · 21/07/2025 15:52

Also, remember that JC is acting under instructions from her clients. One of them being DU, a trans rights activist. So it isn't surprising this racist etc slurs is in there, it doesn't necessarily reflect on JC.

I think it does reflect badly on JR because the final questions to her witness are determined not quite so much by prior instruction from client, but also necessarily depend on what she chooses to pick out from the cross examination. Arguably she may have done better for client if she had eg probed the issue of Lottie's own views as someone who plays ?rugby with transwomen on the rugby team.

I don't think it will matter at all to JR what the general public think of her because she lives in a different world and most of us couldn't afford her even if we needed her. She won't suffer because of what she has done today. But I feel comfortable saying it really doesn't reflect well on her. I havent heard those racist slurs said out loud in a long time, and that she brought that word to court with absolutely no good reason, will be a memorable horrible association with JR for a long time to come.

FeedbackProvider · 21/07/2025 16:25

In an employment tribunal, can a lawyer introduce evidence by asking one witness what another witness who has already given evidence told them without risking that witness being recalled?

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 16:25

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:18

It was awful even as recorded by TT. There was absolutely no need to try and draw this out as it had already been firmly established that it was just gossip with no substance. Definitely JR desperate to feed the beasts outwith the TT and give them something to use to further trash SP in the court of public opinion. By getting the witness to make those claims on the stand it becomes entirely legitimate for Guardian to headline...tribunal hears of nurse calling dr a 'P...'.

FFS. I hope the panel punishes her for that when the time comes.

Good questions from the J though.

Nice use of "outwith". Sassenachs take note :)

DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 16:26

They are bastards. If Nicole writes to the judge today and gets the letter witnessed and delivered tomorrow will she be able to have her truthful statement read into the record?

Largesso · 21/07/2025 16:28

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 16:23

I think it does reflect badly on JR because the final questions to her witness are determined not quite so much by prior instruction from client, but also necessarily depend on what she chooses to pick out from the cross examination. Arguably she may have done better for client if she had eg probed the issue of Lottie's own views as someone who plays ?rugby with transwomen on the rugby team.

I don't think it will matter at all to JR what the general public think of her because she lives in a different world and most of us couldn't afford her even if we needed her. She won't suffer because of what she has done today. But I feel comfortable saying it really doesn't reflect well on her. I havent heard those racist slurs said out loud in a long time, and that she brought that word to court with absolutely no good reason, will be a memorable horrible association with JR for a long time to come.

She doesn't play rugby with transwomen though. She was very specific about saying trans players. Transwomen can't play contact rugby in women's teams. I think they can in touch rugby but whichever CM plays she said, in response to changing with me, that she changes with trans players. It undermined her credibility even more to me as she had clearly practiced that obfuscation. No one has a problem with trans men changing in f cr.

Tweakie123 · 21/07/2025 16:29

maltravers · 21/07/2025 16:09

I assume this is for the BBC, the Metro, the Guardian etc, to give them some headlines that will draw fire from NHS Fife.

Yes possibly! I have complained about the bbc headline re Nurse confronts trans doctor in an 'unacceptable manner', highlighting that the article omits the admission by NHS Fife that there was 'no acceptable way' for Sandy to raise concerns. They've basically brushed off my complaint. I will be complaining further to the ECU.

possomblossom · 21/07/2025 16:31

viques · 21/07/2025 15:55

Maybe JR got a bit carried away and thought she had a jury to impress, forgot she is addressing a seasoned judge who can spot the cold sweat of desperation at a hundred metres.

I also suspect that NC's attitude is that you don't interrupt your adversary while they are making a (serious) mistake.

Szygy · 21/07/2025 16:31

FannyCann · 21/07/2025 16:07

Is it at all possible/likely that Kate Searle is sticking by the rules and not following the action, that she doesn't know she is well and truly cooked?
She must be feeling not unlike Anne Boleyn on the night before her execution, albeit without the (admittedly very small) consolation of knowing she did nothing wrong.

I'd lay a fairly generous bet that she'll be a No Show tomorrow, and call in sick (not sure what the rules are for witnesses calling in sick but in all honesty she probably really will be). Though I'd say it hardly matters. True we will all miss out on the massive dose of schadenfreude watching (not literally, but via TT and other sources) her being eviscerated, hung drawn and quartered by Naomi, but the damage is all done already. The evidence is there. There's not a single thing she can say to make matters any better for anyone, herself, DU, or anyone else at NHS Fife.

I was surprised at Maya publishing her transcript of the smoking gun email, in fact I'm surprised it was allowed legally. On balance I think it would have been better if she hadn't - it will certainly be an added reason why KS may cry off tomorrow, and she could publish it later anyway.

Anyone know how old KS is? I'm thinking a prolonged period off sick for stress could possibly segue into early retirement. That would be my preferred option in her shoes, but then in her shoes I wouldn't have sent that email.

Anyone know how old KS is? I'm thinking a prolonged period off sick for stress could possibly segue into early retirement. That would be my preferred option in her shoes, but then in her shoes I wouldn't have sent that email

Someone a thread or so back said she was younger than Elspeth Pitt, who looked to me to be maybe 50-ish?

ETA I think Dr Searle qualified in 2004 if I have the right person.

lcakethereforeIam · 21/07/2025 16:32

Am I the only one who hears Eastender stylie drumbeats at the end of Boswelltoday's summaries?

MarieDeGournay · 21/07/2025 16:32

'EVIL TRANSPHOBIC NURSE MONSTER IS ALSO RACIST AND HOMOPHOBIC' .........tribunal hears.

That's the way to phrase it so you can dance around accusations of bias😡

Lins77 · 21/07/2025 16:35

DeanElderberry · 21/07/2025 16:22

Some time this morning there was a link to a TRA complaining that there had been deadnaming during the course of the tribunal. I'm pretty sure that isn't true. Dr Upton has been mis-sexed by some people and mis-gendered by others - both those are legal, even if they annoy some people.

But I have not seen Dr Upton's original name being used in any of the questions and answers.

I think maybe very early on, back in Feb? Not sure though.

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 16:35

BettyBooper · 21/07/2025 16:22

From Boswelltoday on X

“Spiteful Tittle-Tattle”: A Manager’s Admission of Ignorance, and an Institution’s Abdication of Duty

The afternoon cross-examination of Charlotte Myles stripped away any illusion that Sandy Peggie’s suspension had been based on evidence. It revealed instead a disturbing truth: that an NHS manager with no prior relationship to the nurse, no understanding of her beliefs, and no access to foundational documents had been allowed to shape the course of her professional fate - with little more than gossip, confusion, and blind deference to policy.

Myles’ admission that she had not reviewed the original suspension documents before conducting her risk assessment should have ended the matter. Yet she proceeded to reinstate Peggie’s return under restrictive conditions, claiming she was satisfied there was “no risk” - then later reversed that position, citing rota complications. In reality, her testimony showed no coherent reasoning at all - only an opportunistic toggling between process justifications and personal instinct.

Pressed on the alleged racist and homophobic remarks, Myles confirmed the details were absent or unverifiable. The doctor supposedly targeted by a racial slur had no recollection of it. No dates, no statements, no incident forms - just ambient accusation, repeated and reused. Myles described it as “spiteful tittle-tattle,” yet allowed it to inform her framing of Peggie’s case. Her claim to neutrality collapsed under its own contradictions.

Even the documents she relied upon were a mystery to her. She could not say whether her risk assessment drew from the formal Datix report, the “hate incident” statement, or an anonymous summary left on her desk without attribution. She didn’t ask. She didn’t verify. She didn’t remember. Yet from this fog, she signed off on conditions that implied Peggie was a threat.

Her approach to the changing room issue exposed even more. Myles confirmed that roughly 200 women used the shared female space - yet saw no problem in permitting a trans-identifying male colleague to access it. She acknowledged there was no remaining guarantee of single-sex privacy. When asked whether women with religious or trauma-based needs could safely raise objections, Myles agreed they should not have to - but offered no mechanism to protect them. The burden, unspoken but clear, was on women to absorb the discomfort in silence.

She did not know the law. She misunderstood the Equality Act. She believed that respecting gender identity overrode a woman’s right to express belief - even in a healthcare context, even about material sex. Her language veered between deflection and appeasement, but her logic was consistent: deference to the policy, at any cost to women.

And the cost was real. Peggie was displaced, monitored, and restricted - not because of what she did, but because of what she believed. Myles confirmed Peggie had never harmed a patient, had shown empathy to trans individuals, and had no prior complaints in a thirty-year career. Still, Myles upheld the view that oversight was needed - not to protect patients, but to protect the institution from further scrutiny.

By the end, the portrait was damning. Myles had neither command of the facts nor courage to dissent. She permitted hearsay to carry the weight of formal complaint and allowed policy abstractions to trump clinical reality. Her testimony did not defend her decisions. It exposed them.

The tribunal continues. But the evidence now speaks with cumulative force: in the conflict between a woman’s grounded concern and an institution’s ideological drift, NHS Fife chose expedience. It chose to move the woman. And it sent the message that in today’s NHS, the risk is not misconduct - it is noticing

To me, that doesn't entirely chime with the reporting we've been following here this afternoon - it paints LM in a much worse light.

GrumpyUngulate · 21/07/2025 16:36

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:03

Kate Searle tomorrow!

Cleared my diary. This is going to be historic.

Lins77 · 21/07/2025 16:38

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 16:35

To me, that doesn't entirely chime with the reporting we've been following here this afternoon - it paints LM in a much worse light.

Yeah I think Boswell is a little unfair here (although I didn't read all the evidence). LM certainly seemed to be striving for a fairer approach than some others we could mention.

Harassedevictee · 21/07/2025 16:39

These threads move fast. Someone asked why NC didn’t ask about the 1992 workplace regs.

From watching other cases I’ve realised Barristers in cross examination are looking for specific points from each witness, So they don’t ask questions we would expect.

Summarising today NC got a lot of helpful info

  • CM can be a GI believer and still follow fair processes to ensure both parties are treated correctly.
  • CM stopped the suspension
  • CM understood SPs perspective and reached a compromise on the phased return to work
  • CM gave more detail about who was spreading hear say about racist and homophobic comments
  • CM also pointed out to KS that if there was an incident why wasn’t it reported.
  • CM also had the decency to meet DrU and explain her decision.
NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 16:39

I am going to send another postcard today to send good wishes to Sandie, and her beautiful daughter, and family who are supporting her.

If she does return to work, I'd like the first thing she receives to be an outpouring of love and confidence. If she doesn't, I'd like the 'last word' to come from people who don't have their mouths filled with bile.

I'm keeping the message short, sweet and supportive, and using a postcard because it is lightweight for the postie, and transparently a supportive card (and not a Hate Incident waiting to be datixed by the hard of understanding).

I'm addressing it to

Nurse Sandie Peggie
A&E Dept
Victoria Hospital
Hayfield Road
Kirkcaldy KY2 5AH

bananafake · 21/07/2025 16:39

rebmacesrevda · 21/07/2025 16:22

Is SP off sick with stress just now? If all this bad-mouthing means she can never go back, it's going to cost NHS Fife a bloody fortune in lost wages & pension. Bastards!

The thing is it's not really NHS Fife that will iincur a fortune, it's the taxpayer that's paying for all this. None of the instigators will pay a penny!

ExitPursuedByABare · 21/07/2025 16:40

NImumconfused · 21/07/2025 16:35

To me, that doesn't entirely chime with the reporting we've been following here this afternoon - it paints LM in a much worse light.

I agree. Totally different to the feeling I’d got from here.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 16:42

Lins77 · 21/07/2025 16:35

I think maybe very early on, back in Feb? Not sure though.

NC raised it in the opening session of the tribunal when discussing documents. She wanted to raise the issue around GMC registration(s) in different names.

Merrymouse · 21/07/2025 16:42

ExitPursuedByABare · 21/07/2025 16:40

I agree. Totally different to the feeling I’d got from here.

We have focused much more CM's confirmation that she had no concerns about SP's performance, and what seems to me to be dismissal of the complaints as hearsay.

Lins77 · 21/07/2025 16:42

NebulousSupportPostcard · 21/07/2025 16:39

I am going to send another postcard today to send good wishes to Sandie, and her beautiful daughter, and family who are supporting her.

If she does return to work, I'd like the first thing she receives to be an outpouring of love and confidence. If she doesn't, I'd like the 'last word' to come from people who don't have their mouths filled with bile.

I'm keeping the message short, sweet and supportive, and using a postcard because it is lightweight for the postie, and transparently a supportive card (and not a Hate Incident waiting to be datixed by the hard of understanding).

I'm addressing it to

Nurse Sandie Peggie
A&E Dept
Victoria Hospital
Hayfield Road
Kirkcaldy KY2 5AH

Did you see her daughter's post on twitter about all the cards her mum has received? It's amazing ❤️

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