NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #35

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34

from the Herald live blog:
10:49am
The Herald understands a private hearing is taking place which explains the delay.

<Dashes breathlessly through door>
I have caught up before we go live!
<Relieved>

'Well he's a liar, and I'm not sure about you'

edited to clarify
the guy who works down the chip shop who swears he's Elvis

You can be transgender and straight (attracted to the same gender)....
From that nhs Fife page.

Are they saying the quiet part out loud there?

Good spot. Paul someone?

She reminds me of one of the barristers in the Alison Bailey case at Garden Court Chambers!

TT says still no live link.

What's the odds she's trying to squirm her way out of being to account in the public eye? And more importantly, what's the odds she would succeed if she is??

Ah. Yes. I had to read that a couple of times but they are, aren't they?

Out of interest what do you perceive to be the difference between being GC and being transphobic? How can I voice my sex realist beliefs without tipping over into transphobia? If I want to challenge a man/TW using the female changing room at work, how can I do this without being accused of transphobia? NC asked this Q several times and has never managed to get an answer.

Could spreading the unfounded racist / homophobic / transphobic rumors about SP - note that no one has actually been able to find a source for them - be seen as evidence of a group bullying SP?

JR is repeating stuff that is just hearsay - she has no evidence of the source of any rumor and where checked the rumors have been shown to be false.

Is JR guilty of joining in with a group that are bullying SP?

Well, judging from the earlier photo, she has [a] turned up, fair dues, and [b] is not trawling the corridors looking for someone to sob to and say how distressed she is by what the meanies are saying..

I’m about to have breakfast, so they’re waiting for me to finish before they begin. It’ll be about 20 minutes.

Can anyone remember the posting that gave the actual dimensions of the changing room? IIRC it is really small - something like 2½ x3 ½ metres and with lockers on one wall. So close confines and virtually forced to be in contact with others.

Was there a picture posted?

Just going back to this in the email to Upton

“You have the full support of the consultant and senior nursing team, and you can contact any of us any time you need to” (on top of the walking him out to the car park).

I remember a day when I’d been aggressively physically assaulted by a male patient, was bruised on my arms and chest, and had been in tears because he’d belittled me about being upset. My consultant knew, I was due to be on call that night, and I really hoped my consultant would send me home and arrange for the shift to be covered. Instead he said (paraphrasing) “crack on - oh, and do feel free to call me if you have to”

And I have many many colleagues (of both sexes) who have had similar responses, which seem far short of the overwhelming support for Upton after his terrible experience (of a woman standing up to him).

None of this “contact ANY of the senior consultant/nursing team”.

I’m kind of out of WTFs, but WTF?!?

Not wanting to get changed in front of a man isn’t transphobic. Telling him he can’t be employed would be, though.

So much of this argument comes down to people who sincerely believe that if someone wants to be the opposite sex, they have entered some sort of state of bliss where their desire bends reality and steamrollers over the rights of everyone around them.

Ironically I grew up around the sort of fundamentalists who sincerely believed that everyone not a member of their group was a sinner destined for hell. It’s striking to see the same with-us-or-against-us thinking employed by Gender Ideologues. “If you don’t believe in trans, you are a BAD PERSON and we will righteously make up smears about you to prove it!”

The judge has already dealt with the request for the current witness list being questioned in camera. Can't see why he'd entertain a repeat request at this point.

More likely to be matters arising from Friday or yesterday.

I reckon they'll start up when my baby wakes from her nap and I can no longer follow along...so perhaps 30 minutes?

I've been assuming that the threats Police Scotland are aware of / looking at, referenced in The Statement (v1,2,3 and 4) relate to KS, specifically after her emails were published. Maybe someone has done a risk assessment.....

Am supposed to be an observer but seem to have been disconnected their end. I deliberately waited for the press to speak first but after seeing how KS came dressed to court, and then learning that the court is in a private session, I'm guessing (this is complete speculation on my part) that the Friday Statement will have been a precursor to requesting KS give evidence in private for safety reasons.

And while I'd never gratuitously criticise what another woman wears, it seems unusual for a senior staff witness to be wearing a casual sports-type top to a formal court hearing, but it may add to a scenario where a stressed threatened doctor is presenting as someone bravely battling her way to court but cannot accept the risk of public scrutiny.

I've chanced a tactical wee, drink and snack and am now over primed.

There was a photo in the bundle because NC took DU to it and asked him where he stood etc.
There's a link somewhere upthread to access the bundle. Heaven knows what page it is but we may be here some time...

I’m in!

Define transphobia

Why? Are you suggesting there's no such thing? I was explaining that the defence are trying to show that SP's actions were motivated by transphobia, which wouldn't be considered as legitimate for a work discrimination claim.

I suspect our only hope of seeing a doctor today is if your snack contained peanuts.

It wasn't because he's trans, it was because he's a man.