How does it even affect you? Just be kind.

[Shedmistress]

We all get this endlessly from every angle. Why do you care?
Why can't you just let this vulnerable group quietly get on with their lives?
It's just a tiny minority so go do something better with your day...

So I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread of 'ways it affects other people' and the effects of losing all logic, reason, sense of reality, and how health, safety and welfare are thrown out of the window the moment the word 'trans' is mentioned.

Please feel free to add your own with a link to what you are talking about. Especially documents relating to policy and processes that are wide open to abuse.

Right, again, that’s not the issue the OP is talking about.

It is an issue, but it actually doesn’t affect the DBS thing which is already a mess.

Changing identify may come with a whole other bunch of problems. I’ve not argued against that.

The OP claims that the only reason criminals can lie on a DBS check is because trans people exist. That is 100% not true. She simply doesn’t understand what she is talking about. Or even what the trans guidance allows for.

Trans people and trans guidance has zero impact on how the DBS process is cheated by criminals. And trans people are not given special treatment when filling out the form.

I agree that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the special unit that handles trans dbs applications. As you say, those using it ARE declaring their previous identity.

The problem is that trans people can take on a new identity and not declare it and chances are the old ID wouldnt be picked up.

This matters because trans women have the same offending rate as men in general and we know that most violent and sexual crime is committed by men.

Women may well be able to hide a previous ID through marriage. But they aren't so much the ones the dbs system is trying to identify.

I agree. An adopted individual has no choice in the type of birth certificate they have. Why should those stating they are changing gender be able to hide their past. A birth certificate records SEX not Gender.

You don’t need to send in a birth certificate. you can use other documents. If they are in your new name, then DBS will never know about your birth name. Criminals can hide their birth name; they don’t need to pretend to be trans to change their birth certificate in order to use this loophole. You don’t need to provide your birth certificate.

The issue isn’t trans people being the only ones who can cheat. The issue is that it is far too easy to cheat, and anyone can do it. Nothing at all to do with trans.

DBS relies on people being honest. Anyone at all can change their name, get their supporting documents in their new name, and apply for DBS only using their new name. If trans people didn’t exist, and there was no trans guidance at all… nothing would change. It would be the exact same issue. Anyone can cheat DBS, it has nothing to do with trans people and it isn’t helped by trans guidance because trans guidance has no affect.

But anyone can do that. Not just trans woman. Male criminals who remain male can do the exact same thing. And they do. That’s how the police have managed to lose them.

They change their name to a different male name and off they go. They can start a whole new life with that name and once they have the supporting documents with their new name, they can cheat on a DBS check. Trans people existing doesn’t affect that. At all.

Anyone can take on a new identity and not declare the old one. You don’t need a birth certificate for a DBS check. Trans people being able to change their birth certificate doesn’t give them an advantage over non-trans people when it comes to DBS because it isn’t even needed. There is no “trans loopholes” and trans people did not create an opportunity for criminal to exploit. It was always available and they have exploited it.

I care because i don’t want a man who says he’s ’non binary’ attending a women’s rape crisis meeting.

i particularly don’t want it when he is latter convicted of a sex crime

Literally all the guidance on how to fill in the form. I’ve done loads of them. It’s quite clear. You must give all your names.

and what if you just... don't? how can you be forced to do that?

That isn’t what I said. Are you deliberately misinterpreting my words?
Almost all male transsexuals applying for a DBS certificate will have changed their name.
Almost no male non-transsexuals applying for a DBS certificate will have changed their name.

ETA of course many women will use married name

That’s the point. No one can. Because DBS is shit. For everyone!!

Not just trans people. Absolutely anyone, any criminal, can get around it. They always could. It has nothing to do with trans people existing and the trans guidance doesn’t make it any easier at all.

This is a DBS being shitty issue. This is not a trans people issue.

right, so why are you messing about derailing a thread?

We all saw what the guidance was, that there is special treatment for trans individuals and we have established that nobody at all, but especially trans people, can be compelled to give their names.

In the meantime the thread is derailed. Slow fucking handclap.

Again, not true.

You realised almost all married women (until more recently of course) have changed their name. And lots and lots of married women apply for DBS checks.

The majority of name changes in this country are not anywhere near to being trans people. Only around 30% of trans people legally change their name. They are a very small percentage of legal name changes. They certainly don’t make up 99.9% of DBS applications.

Millions of people have changed their name. Millions. And any one of them doing a job requiring a check will have applied for DBS.

It is not a loophole for trans people. Jesus Christ. And trans people do not make up the majority of DBS checks with a name change.

It also doesn’t matter because they have to follow the same rules as everyone else!

@TruthOrAlethiometer
9:59 am
When you go through any DBS check, you must include all your past names. Transgender people cannot hide their past from a DBS check. It is linked to them
12:41
Not just trans people. Absolutely anyone, any criminal, can get around it. They always could.

Can you clarify - can nobody ever do this this morning and yet this afternoon, anyone can? Has there been a policy change whilst I've been out shopping or something?

This is why. Your comment is why I keep replying. Because that’s not what the guidance does. They don’t have extra special treatment, they don’t benefit anymore than anyone else, they certainly don’t benefit more than criminals.

The OP claims that the only reason this is possible is because trans people exist. That is 100% wrong. Absolutely and completely wrong. Trans people existing has nothing whatsoever to do with how people cheat DBS and how criminals get around it.

The name change loophole has been closed for registered sex offenders, but not for registered sex offenders who change their legal gender identity.

The system could be fixed by using NI numbers, which remain unchanged.

https://www.womensgrid.org.uk/?p=23593

they literally have special treatment in that their former names will not be revealed to their employer. This service is offered to only trans people.

That was in response to you saying that they were ALLOWED to do it.

No one is allowed to leave names off. If they do then it is fraud. Being trans does not give you any special rights whatsoever when it comes to a DBS check.

It is obviously possible for anyone at all to attempt to commit fraud. They can change their name, get their supporting documents changed to evidence that new name and then apply for a DBS check without giving their old name. That is fraud, for a trans person or a non-trans person. But people (criminals) do it.

It’s always been done, long before any trans guidance or trans people being allowed to change their birth certificates. The fact that people commit fraud and cheat on DBS has absolutely nothing to do with trans people existing or trans guidance existing. Literally nothing to do with it.

Anyone can commit fraud. It is still fraud. Trans people are not allowed to, which you claimed they were.
Trans guidance is not the reason this fraud is possible, which you claimed it was.

They have nothing to do with each other.

Do some trans people commit this fraud? Yes.
Do some people with a criminal record commit this fraud? Yes.

Do you need to claim to be trans to do this? No.
Does trans guidance open up a loophole? No. It was always there.

I think for me it went

There are a small number of men who want to be treated as women so will wear a dress and call themselves a female name. Be kind to them and don't stop them having jobs or be hateful to them and call them by their preferred name. - seems fair enough, why would we want to upset people if they aren't harming anyone then crack on.

Somehow that turned into

They are literally women who are women just because they say they are (no need to attempt to pass or take any surgeries or hormones). They are allowed in every female protected space regardless of what stage they are in their transition and if you tell them no you are a hateful bigot and are literally killing them. They are allowed to take your prizes, your scholarships, your funding. You must enable them to join your single sex groups even if it is something like breast feeding as otherwise we will ban the group from forming. You are no longer women or mothers who breast feed babies - you are cis women, birth givers and chest feeders. Female language no longer exists. If you feel uncomfortable with a penis in the women's changing rooms then that is your problem and you must be re-educated to accept these special women. Some men will try and use these new special women laws to infiltrate into women spaces for sexual and criminal reasons but they are a small number and the women and children affected are legitimate collateral damage to enable these men to not get hurty feelz. Your feelings are no longer important, only their feelings are.

This is when most women went - wtf?

A few weeks back in Edinburgh, corner Princess Street - Waverly Station, tall bloke with beard in a gold lame skirt was talking to two early 20s women, very likely tourists (pretty sure Germans) who both had forced smiles on their faces and avoided looking down where the thin fabric of the skirt didn't manage to hide his erection. I wish I'd had stopped to tell them that they don't have to play along with this and to just walk away.

There are some absolute whoppers on this thread.

99.99% of DBS checks with a name change are apparently from trans people.

The only reason DBS check fraud is even possible at all is because there is recent trans guidance which only affects what name is displayed on the certificate. And you can only commit this fraud by claiming to be trans.

Absolute donkeys making this shit up.

Yet, people are meant to take this place seriously.

Should my elderly DM be allowed to request that her catheter and other intimate care is only performed by a biological woman?

And you didn’t feel able to complain? No judgement but not feeling able to complain is also an issue

Is it an issue that a person's birth sex and previous name(s) can be omitted from the DBS info that a Safeguarding Officer sees? In my opinion, it is. How can you do safe recruiting if you can't check someone's internet footprint because everything before a particular year is effectively hidden? DBS checks don't go looking for this sort of thing - they are just concerned with what the police know.

I’m sure that is an issue for certain roles. But that’s not the point I was arguing. I was correcting the OP for saying (and continuing to say) that trans people are the entire reason that DBS fraud is possible.

So you could have said 'yes, that is one loophole, in that not knowing the previous identity of someone who claims to have changed sex but look at all these other frauds that the DBS system is not capturing'?

Right?

I recently had reason to attend a hospital stroke unit to sit with an old friend.

In the bed next door was a woman, perhaps in her 90's. She had had a stroke and was obviously very frail, confused and frightened. She had likely been born in the 1930's, lived through the second world war, seen Elizabeth's coronation, seen life

A nurse came and told her that she needed to have her catheter changed. They pulled the curtains around her. She asked them what they were doing, pleaded with them to stop and eventually started weeping quietly. A second nurse was called who tried to calm her down but she just kept pleading for them to stop. I left - it was not right for me to invade this woman's privacy

Some medical staff within the NHS claim that it would be entirely acceptable for this vulnerable woman to be attended by a biological man whose self-image was that he was female. A man who feels that his self-image is more important than the dignity of a vulnerable female patient.

No, I am not directly affected by the man's lies but to ignore his actions would not be 'being kind'