arrested at Pride for wearing a sign saying Trans=mental illness

[happydappy2]

Montgomery Toms has been arrested for wearing a sign showing the pink & blue stripes of trans=mental illness.

Arrested. What has happened to free speech in this country?

https://x.com/ESpeaksFreely/status/1941518454466748461

Calling a trans woman a man is not offensive to trans women because a woman and a trans woman are two different things? Or have I misunderstood?

Not according to many of those male people who believe they are female . Particularly the ones who use deconstructive logic to wedge themselves into the descriptor of ‘female people’.

It seems you have a rather biased view of this group of male people. It is a very narrow view too. It doesn’t seem to cover the many facets of male people with transgender identities.

Has this woman's son been convicted of a crime?

As before, your idea of 'offensive language' seems to centre on the term TRA (trans rights activist).

While ignoring the double standard of those threatening (or actually carrying out) violence against women facing no consequences whatsoever and meanwhile admonishing the mother of a man who held up a sign saying 'trans = mental illness' and was arrested by 11 officers.

The fact is a man in a frock is a man in a frock.

Regardless of how that man might choose to describe themselves.

And if we are going to talk about things just done to be offensive, and you've asked for honesty, your posts on this thread are totally giving off offensive vibes.

Great. So you show no empathy for a mother about her son, but you centre and show empathy for male people who will directly harm female people.

It is really great that you are comfortable about that.

This is the logic that seems to be lost on some people. It is like the mantra ‘transwomen are women’ which is asymmetrical the other direction. Which shows pretty clearly that it is logically false.

holy cow

you've spent the entire thread trying to guilt women into being kind to 'transwomen'

what do you think the kind of man who believes all women think a certain way (a.k.a. a man who thinks that he can role play as a woman) is? that's pretty much the definition of misogyny

Anyone who doesn't fall into like and use offensive language about trans people, trans women in particular are piled on

im with arabella I haven’t said anything offensive about transpeople either

This poster claims calling someone a trans.rights activist is a slur.

I think they hardly even know what their own argument is.

yes that is a weird one arabella

you get all sorts of rights activists I think

So you do admit that you hold the view that all trans women are misogynists. I was just checking because that is the definition of prejudice.

You clearly haven't understood what I believe.

Everyone deserves kindness and empathy, except for people who are deliberately cruel to others. And no, I don't have empathy for mothers who endorse their sons hate speech. If she was shocked her son was committing hate speech crimes and wanted support, I'd have empathy for her. But she is endorsing it, so no.

Is that an admission that you see all trans women as men who want to directly harm female people? Because that's one hell of an admission to a sweeping generalisation rooted in prejudice.

What was the hate speech? His sign may have been deemed trouble making at Pride, but he is completely entitled to speak the truth

Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosis in the American Manual of Psychiatric Disorders (DSM 5) and to get a GRC you have to have that diagnosis. If it was not a mental illness the NHS would not have to pay for any trans surgery or hormones. Trans people fought the NHS for this in court - on the basis of the mental illness issue - back track now and you will have to self fund your own cosmetic treatments

"Admit"? You think women pointing out that the belief in trans gender identities is inherently misogynistic is something to be ashamed of?

No, I don't "admit" it.

I state it clearly and unequivocally.

I state this:

It is impossible to believe that something in a man's mind makes him in any meaningful way, in any way that matters outside his own head, any closer to women than other men without having a reductive and dehumanising view of women.

It is impossible to believe that a man's need, no matter how genuine and deeply he feels it, to have his body accepted as a woman's body, his eyes accepted as woman's eyes, his hands accepted as a women's hands, his voice accepted as a woman's voice, his experiences accepted as a woman's experiences, his priorities treated as a woman's priorities, is more real than a woman's knowledge that she is in a space with a man, is being watched by a man, is being touched by a man, is being spoken over and about by a man, is having her needs rewritten by a man, without placing more weight on the authority of the man to say what is real than that of the woman.

I get it. You are thinking about the poor trans women. How sad they must feel to read this.

But I am thinking about the women. Women never asked for this. We were never asked if the way trans women see women is the way we see ourselves. Yet for some reason now, some people have started to accept this idea that the way some men think makes them more like us than other men. And so because of these men who in reality are nothing at all to do with us and the challanges we face and the protections we need, we have to compromise and redefine ourselves and our lives and the rights we have and the reasons we have them in a way that allows these trans women's projections and misreadings of women and our lives to become the truth of women because - because otherwise we would be being mean to the people who are undefining us? Really?

Trans women, no matter how genuinely they may feel themselves to be women, cannot be anything other than misogynists because the very belief that the diversity of half of humanity is an identity that can be named and adopted by a single man rather than billions of lives linked only be the commonality of the female body IS an utter inability to see woman as complete humans not just symbols, projections and stereotypes.

The people who are saying this have no reason to be ashamed. They are standing up for women. The people who want women to shut up and be kind to the men who insult and belittle us however.... well they need to take a good hard look in the mirror.

That's a whole lot of words for "Yes I make sweeping generalisations about a whole minority group" I see the generalisation that ALL trans women belittle and insult women too.

Which is against talking guidelines but is never enforced when the minority group is trans women.

That's a very small number of words to say "I can't counter the arguement so I'll just throw mud".

Yes ALL trans women belittle and insult women, because the belief that something in how a man thinks makes him more like "a woman" than other men IS belittling and insulting.

Calling that a "generalisation" is like claiming it's a "generalisation" to say all Christians believe in Christ, or all butchers sell meat.

So now we have established that I'm not going to turn tail and run because you pointed the quivery finger of shame at me for noticing people who have a misgynist belief system are misogynists, have you got any actual arguments?

Do you believe the fundamental difference between men and women, the reason women have faced sexism, rape and marginalisation, been sold as property, been locked out of power, been banned from owning money, been a chattel of fathers and husbands, is not because people looked at our bodies and decided to do these things to us but because our minds are just so darn different to men's, and it's just some weird andandazy coincidence all that shot happened to happen to the minds of the people with female bodies?

"... people who are deliberately cruel to others ..." Such as people who demand that their parents deny that they have a son (and in extreme cases, deny that they ever had a son) because they don't like to be called "he" or by their "deadname"? I doubt if you have any concept or understanding of how cruel that is - and there are many examples of that demand being enforced by threats of estrangement, often followed up by going "no contact". And of course, this applies to parents of a daughter who demands to be referred to as "he", and to the wives and children and siblings of a man who transitions in later life.

Maybe if you are a parent you can imagine how painful that kind of coercion can be. If it made any sense at all, I could perhaps accept the "death" of my son, but no-one has been able to explain how he can no longer be my son and how I have to accept the utter (sexist) nonsense that he is now a woman because he says so. The fact is, I accept him as he is - a man who likes to wear stereotypical women's clothing (tasteful, thank God, as far as I have seen) - but he does not.

Is that an admission that you see all trans women as men who want to directly harm female people?

Ah right, I get it. You probably don't know whether Rachel Dolezal, the woman who pretended to be black and got a job as head of her local in NAACP, was being racist.

Or people generally who don black face Some are, some aren't...

Got it.

A woman takes her dress off and retains womanhood.

A man puts her dress on but that doesn't remove his manhood. His very being is male.

@SugarSoiree how are some men removing what makes them male (that occurred in the first cell at conception)?

I'd like to add that I don't know what is going on in my son's head. He may have no conception of how cruel, and how sexist, he is being. He has made little attempt to express how he is thinking - and that may be very hard for him to express. I am left to observe that he is speaking from the same script as all the other trans people, and to wonder how much comes from himself, and how much has been taught to him.

You are treading a hard path, and one the be-kinders have no idea about or they'd shut up.

Yes. My main reason for speaking up is in the hope that one or two people might at some point recognise that there are other people in the world as well as those on a trans path (which I also recognise as a difficult one), and that putting transgender people's wants above all others is unbalanced.

I admit that I was ignorant of the adverse effects of trans identity politics on women, including the wives, children and siblings of transitioners, until my own distress led me to digging deeper into the whole phenomenon. I was a classic "be kinder" until my own cognitive dissonance demanded something more, and that led to some understanding of other people's experiences and feelings. It's possible, probably likely, that I am missing some understanding of the transpeople I know, but absolutely no-one in the genderist camp has been able to make a coherent case to me for their worldview. As long as that is based on nonsense about a sex spectrum, and the mangling of language (sex is both the same as and quite different from gender, for example), I don't see how there's even a plausible hypothesis.

“Is that an admission that you see all trans women as men who want to directly harm female people”

And there is that absolutist fuckwittery tactic again. It is almost like that accusation of prejudice is an admission. Language eh!

I believe I have already posted that there are people with transgender identities who don’t wish harm other people. But please, by all means, continue posting using these dishonest tactics such as this twisting of words. It is not highlighting quite what you believe you are highlighting.

Of course, language being a powerful tool and all, there is an argument to be had that any male person who claims to be a woman, when it is impossible for that to be his reality, is by the nature of forcibly redefining the language needed by female people to campaign for their own unique needs is causing harm.

That it happens regardless of that persons wish or want not to cause harm. It is the outcome none the less.

And causing harm to female people through removing the language they need in this way is an act of misogyny. Intentional or not. How else can it be described?