Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Yes I get everyone's points but if you read any thread on here the language towards trans women is quite abysmal, post after post. And I understand that there are obviously some trans women who deserve that treatment, but not all of them do. I'm not just talking about the few trans women who have started threads, though they are ripped to shreds you can't really deny. Just the general language around them is extremely negative. I agree that some of them haven't done themselves any favours whatsoever. The trans men I know do want to be called he/him, perhaps that's unusual OP? I mean if you go to all the trouble of transitioning surely you would want to be acknowledged as male even though you accept you were born female?
I'm not trying to argue against anyone's points regarding women's rights and spaces, sport and all the rest of it, I agree with it.
Anyway just my thoughts on that matter, I don't pretend to have the knowledge and wisdom of a lot of the posters on here. Perhaps in time when things settle calmer conversations can be had.

I have real life experience (as compared with social media experience) of interacting with TW, TM and TRA allies (not necessarily really TRAs themselves). It's a very small sample of each, but for what it's worth, my experience is:

• TRA ally number 1 (female) - utterly self righteous from the beginning and made assumptions about my motivation; called me a bigot and won't discuss further
• TRA ally number 2 (female) - very similar understanding of sex and gender to me, but her sympathies lie primarily with trans people and she doesn't understand why women are "making a fuss"; comes out with all the TRA arguments
• TRA ally number 3 (female) - I questioned an assumption of hers, and my DW had a good conversation with her afterwards; we appear to be "agreeing to disagree"
• TW - started out reasonable but is now behaving coercively; if I don't do as I'm told, I can expect estrangement, which I deserve
• TM - prepared to debate; emotionally invested with queer theory; has called me a bigot but apologised

I've met a few other trans people, but haven't got to know them well enough for the clash of worldviews to show. I've crossed swords with people about religious and political views many times, and only once been ostracised as a result (about 50 years ago by a fundamentalist).

😀

Bless you OP x

"if you read any thread on here the language towards trans women is quite abysmal, post after post"

What do you call "quite abysmal", though? Are some posts full of anger or bitterness? Sure, but that's only too understandable after what women have been put through.

" I'm not just talking about the few trans women who have started threads, though they are ripped to shreds you can't really deny."

Well, all those I've seen being ripped to shreds deserved to be, so...

"Just the general language around them is extremely negative. "

Nah. Extremely negative would be stuff like "the only good transwoman is a dead transwoman" which I've never seen and which would never be accepted here.

" The trans men I know do want to be called he/him, perhaps that's unusual OP? I mean if you go to all the trouble of transitioning surely you would want to be acknowledged as male even though you accept you were born female?"

Ah, sorry, I meant that I expect to be called she/her on this forum, because those are the rules here. Sure, in real life, I prefer to be called he/him.

Honestly, I don't think it's fair to ask people here to be nicer, after the years of abuse they've had to endure - and still do: just look at all the trans women and their allies who come on here and insult the members of this forum by saying they are stupid, uneducated, ignorant, hateful, bigoted or who knows what else, when they are none of these things. So far I haven't seen a single trans woman or ally come here to genuinely discuss anything! It's always attacks and/or pity parties for one. Why would anyone be nice to such posters?

I've been here for a couple of years, and read many thousands of posts. Undoubtedly there have been some that are extremely critical of trans people, mostly aimed at men claiming to be women. Most, however, are in my opinion reasonable, because they are based on evidence. I get that women with bad experiences of men in general can be dismissive of men - as a man, I'm inclined to say that as a class we deserve it, though I appreciate it when women acknowledge that we're "not all like that" or that some of us "try not to be like that".

Similarly, perhaps the appalling behaviour of some men who claim a trans identity tarnishes all trans people, who don't in many cases individually deserve to be tarred with the same brush (I'll stop mixing metaphors there). Given the ignoring and attempted silencing of women, I'm personally prepared to overlook some intemperate language born out of frustration. I can't agree with "any thread on here ... post after post"; what I have seen is a small proportion among many robustly but respectfully argued opinions. Quite different from the worst of TwiX and Reddit.

When I was in my early twenties and beginning to see some truth in feminist perspectives, I remember being quite put out by a robust criticism of men's behaviour. A wise older woman noticed my discomfort, asked me about it, and sympathised without denying the validity of the criticism; I learned not to take such criticism personally. This is something that young people nowadays, and perhaps particularly trans people, might do well to consider. Hypersensitivity to disagreement results in self victimisation.

I believe the social pressure to use preferred pronouns is very much on the wane.

The incoherency of pronoun usage etiquette has reached the point of being too cumbersome for people to remain engaged I think. Maybe first was the male sports people such as Thomas and Hubbard. Then came Bryson and all of a sudden we were told that rapists don't deserve pronouns and this played out in different court cases where finally women did not have to refer to their rapists as being women and she/her.

Then came Wadhwa, I guess. We were suddenly allowed to not have to use pronouns there either. Although, not really officially like Bryson.

Somewhere in there was Eddie Izzard who enlightened the world as to how he changes pronouns depending on the role he is taking. That he may be in boy-mode or girl-mode. I think that really caught people's attention after Bryson and Wadhwa.

Then Dr Cass was clear that social transition was not a neutral act.

Then came Upton. A real test case. And so many people around the UK listened to interviews, some of us even got to watch the trial, and pronouns were not used and the stark clarity of what had happened became undeniable. A female nurse was suspended because she was uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a male colleague. And women used the correct sex pronouns for that male person. News outlets also.

I doubt that the preferred pronouns will be used as much now. Each month or two at the moment there seems to be something that points out just how ideologically driven it all was. And more and more people are realising that they don't agree with philosophical belief that says that male people can be female or vice versa.

It is really remarkable to see people demonise women for not using the demanded pronouns, in discussions about sex based rights though. And just because you, personally Pony, want to use someone's 'preferred' language, doesn't mean that those who don't wish to, don't have very valid reasons not to and should be shamed for not using that language.

What an interesting thread. Thanks for posting OP. Like others have said, we’re not anti trans. We just want to retain single sex spaces for all the reasons they were created in the first place and that means keeping all males out no matter how they identify. Unfortunately, the majority of transwomen who come on here, do so to lecture us and have the complete opposite attitude to you.

I can appreciate the position of the OP and hope she will find others to be non conforming with ,without further damage to the sex class that is women. The more nuanced empathetic views she has are typical in many women. Personally although she can present herself as she likes, she will never be a man and it doesn’t feel right to call her one. However I can empathise with some of the reasons that transition might have been a good option at the time. However the minute she tries to lecture children and young people about her choices, my empathy will evaporate, as we can see the damage that has been done already. However I ca welcome her contribution here of course.

A lot of the posts are extremely mocking of trans women, maybe you haven't read too many. That's how many come across to me anyway. They are always ' a man in a dress' But yes I guess on this forum of women that is only to be expected. It's a sad state of affairs that they have all been lumped together because of the actions of some of them. As someone who has transitioned yourself do you not have any empathy for how the genuine trans women are being treated at the moment? The ones who just want to get on with their lives without encroaching on anyone else? Because I'm sure there are lots of them who are quietly doing just that. I'm sure a balance will come in time. The reasonable trans people need to get together to make the changes they now need e.g third spaces etc. Let's hope that happens.

And imagine being so socially conditioned that you censure and judge people on their usage of precise and accurate language when the person is using it on media and social media and not even in engaging personally with someone.

"However the minute she tries to lecture children and young people about her choices"

Ain't gonna happen. Discovering that children in the UK are being offered the full range of medical transition was one of the things that helped me realise that GC people had it right.

Two transwomen tried this. It didn’t go down too well.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

perfection.

Thankyou OP.

Ah, the cartoon lopped off the 'radfems' from the bottom of it, unfortunately.

Anyway.

I don't misgender people, but I refer to them by sex. This isn't personal dig, it's in order to regain the category of biological sex, which matters, and in the context of this board, for example, is important.

Were I to meet OP in real life, I'd probably just politely refrain from mentioning her sex or pronouns.

Similarly, if I meet a Muslim and talk about Mohammed, I can do that politely, but I won't recite 'peace be upon him' after I use the name, because as an unbeliever, I feel that would be disengenuous and actually quite disrespectful. Or if I talk to a priest I don't address him as 'father' because I'm not a Christian.

I'm quite pedantic and actually take these things quite seriously. I find 'faking' honorifics etc unsettling and dishonest.

It might make things a bit clunky or awkward, I suppose. But it's my attempt to be genuine and respectful while also maintaining my own boundaries.

Comes down to 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar', really.

There have been a fair few sensible and reasonable trans people who have suffered greatly and been attacked mercilessly by trans activists.

Miranda Yardley getting taken to court - for transphobia! - by Helen Islan springs to mind.

Islan lost, of course.

https://joaniwalsh.com/uks-first-transphobia-trial-thrown-out-trans-defendant-says-it-was-the-worst-10-months-of-my-life/

Sorry, to be more specific, the case was thrown out.

"As someone who has transitioned yourself do you not have any empathy for how the genuine trans women are being treated at the moment? The ones who just want to get on with their lives without encroaching on anyone else?"

I've always had empathy for such transwomen. But how exactly are they being mistreated? They are not the ones who come here and either attack women or pity themselves, so they are not the ones being torn to shreds. Nobody is calling for them to be harmed in any way. The only ones who have actually harmed them are the trans activists.

"The reasonable trans people need to get together to make the changes they now need e.g third spaces etc. Let's hope that happens."

That's going to be difficult. Reasonable trans people are usually pariahs within the trans community, and are most often hounded out of it (including out of spaces they themselves have created! I've seen it happen.) Whoever decides to take on that task will likely face enormous opposition from within the T community.

That sounds crazy!!

Was there any response from political parties at all or didn't it get that far?

I think just in general the way trans women are spoken about on here is demeaning, not necessarily in response to the very few trans women who have started threads. That's just my view, I don't expect anyone else to share it. We are all just expressing our own view of things.
I don't know what the answer is then if the trans community won't come together to solve this issue. It's a huge shame for the ones who are respectful of women's spaces and privacy etc and just want to quietly go about their lives. Are you now using womens facilities?

I believe it just didn’t gain much traction as the TA’s already had the ear of all the major organisations. Which is a shame.

I know a couple of trans men who are both taller than the average woman, about 5'10 and do actually look very male. I'm not sure what they are doing about toilets if they get barred from both. I imagine they will stop going to the gym if there isn't any separate spaces to change as I don't think they'd want any confrontation in the women's.

Yes it really is. Someone strong needs to come forward and start fighting for this. They have to do it themselves.

The reason the OP is being treated with respect is because they are being respectful, thoughtful and interesting.

Thank you for your posts, @Seethlaw .

Something some of the drive by ploppers might want to consider.