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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thank You from a Trans Lurker

560 replies

Seethlaw · 01/05/2025 16:42

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:08

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 10:54

I think just in general the way trans women are spoken about on here is demeaning, not necessarily in response to the very few trans women who have started threads. That's just my view, I don't expect anyone else to share it. We are all just expressing our own view of things.
I don't know what the answer is then if the trans community won't come together to solve this issue. It's a huge shame for the ones who are respectful of women's spaces and privacy etc and just want to quietly go about their lives. Are you now using womens facilities?

Perhaps if you unpicked exactly what it is that those male people with transgender identities wish to campaign for while they are on this board it might start to become clear why feminists feel that those male people are transgressing boundaries just by posting here.

This is long and rambling, but maybe it will help..

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.

Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport). Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not. There is nothing about that belief that is based in material reality.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety? None. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet.

And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for, use that space.

No male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is the sex category, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.

Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category. Because to them, personally and probably ideologically, it is 'kind' and 'respectful'.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief?

And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment- to bypass their body's category to get access to provisions that they should not be accessing when the category is vital for the needs within that category? Age? Disability? Is there any?

Therefore, a group of male people want to have:

Access to their single sex space
Access to unisex spaces
Access to the opposite sex space.

So, not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges of access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

This means this expectation to use female single sex spaces is a privilege that requires female people to accept higher risk than male people. Because, remember there is no evidence that these male people, at any stage of transition, have any lower risk of committing male pattern crime than any other male in the UK.

Why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student.

This is why we see the discussions repeating the extreme activist soundbites because those soundbites appeal to people's wish to be kind, to be righteous and to their lack of understanding about what makes a person transgender.

Those soundbites about 'only a few' are false when you consider the negative impact one male person can have on many female people.

And this is why discussion about 'genuine' transgender people is one we also see very regularly. But the real question should be, why do this group of male people get additional privileges that no one else gets?

All based on a belief about themselves that doesn't reflect material reality.

Naepalz · 02/05/2025 12:10

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 11:41

The thing is I do agree about women's spaces, privacy and dignity and the whole situation with sport, refuges etc. I was just pointing out the huge difference with how trans men and trans women are spoken to and about on here. It does seem extreme sometimes and therefore unfair to the majority who aren't causing any bother.

The thing is, the OP has in my opinion been treated respectfully here, not because of his transman versus transwoman status but because of his attitude.
He has been respectful, polite, insightful and has replied with honesty to the questions he has been asked. He is aware of biological reality and the constraints of his trans status. If a transwoman did the same I'd give them the time of day despite in the past being decried as a hateful terf and a transphobe.
I think that if men identifying as women had kept well away from groups obviously designed for biological woman (miscarriage, menopause, breastfeeding etc) then there would have been a lot less animosity shown towards the trans community. To even attempt to include them in these groups is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone should know they have boundaries

MarieDeGournay · 02/05/2025 12:16

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 10:54

I think just in general the way trans women are spoken about on here is demeaning, not necessarily in response to the very few trans women who have started threads. That's just my view, I don't expect anyone else to share it. We are all just expressing our own view of things.
I don't know what the answer is then if the trans community won't come together to solve this issue. It's a huge shame for the ones who are respectful of women's spaces and privacy etc and just want to quietly go about their lives. Are you now using womens facilities?

I think the attitude of most posters over the many many posts on the topic of transgenderism has been on the whole appropriate to the seriousness of the topic.

There have been cases where some women have completely lost it at transwomen, either as a group, as a social campaign, or as an individual TW who has posted something untrue, baseless, demeaning, condescending or all of the above. Like, completely lost it - probably reacting from a very deep place that provokes a very emotional response. It happens, but not often.

It's mostly posters countering what any passing TW says with a weight of facts, references, statistics, etc. That's because we're keen on facts and reality here, and we have a lot of well-informed and knowledgeable women who can supply links to reliable sources in the blink of an eye.

So a TW coming on here to condescendingly 'educate' us is likely to be met swiftly with a wall of verifiable facts, and TRAs tend not to react well to facts.

A third response is the witty kind - taking the piss out of people who are condescending, especially ones who belong to a social group who are appropriating your identity and encroaching on your rights, is a long-established form of resistance.

But we're never going to go along with what we know to be scientifically incorrect, socially destructive and inimical to women's rights just to #bekind to transwomen, individually or as a group.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:16

Another aspect that those censuring women for stating their need for single sex spaces and rejecting the attempts to convince them to allow some male people into those spaces is understanding that just those male people posting on this board is them transgressing boundaries into feminist spaces.

Any male being in single sex space that is not for them is transgressing boundaries to their own benefit. This is a measure of the success of their campaign to lower boundaries to be in spaces that they should be excluded from. Some people don’t recognise when their boundaries are being breached and when they should be alarmed.

There is currently a thread where a father wishes to feed their infant child the secretions from their breast and attend a breastfeeding support group. The space does not have to be a toilet, it can be any space.

Not to mention that those very male people who are there to transgress boundaries want some degree of alarm response. That is part of why they transgress boundaries. Even if it is a microagression on the female person's part of looking closely at the male person who shouldn't be there.

Even if there is no alarm reaction, the thrill of the transgression of the boundaries to be where they know they should not be may be strong.

Male people with sex offence history too often show a long history of not being caught or challenged in their build up to committing serious offence. Of course, this is not to say that all male people are like that. Or all male people with transgender identities are like that.

However, this type of thinking, the one that says to overlook the male people crossing boundaries, allows the person crossing boundaries to keep going and to go further.

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:20

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:08

Perhaps if you unpicked exactly what it is that those male people with transgender identities wish to campaign for while they are on this board it might start to become clear why feminists feel that those male people are transgressing boundaries just by posting here.

This is long and rambling, but maybe it will help..

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.

Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport). Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not. There is nothing about that belief that is based in material reality.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety? None. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet.

And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for, use that space.

No male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is the sex category, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.

Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category. Because to them, personally and probably ideologically, it is 'kind' and 'respectful'.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief?

And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment- to bypass their body's category to get access to provisions that they should not be accessing when the category is vital for the needs within that category? Age? Disability? Is there any?

Therefore, a group of male people want to have:

Access to their single sex space
Access to unisex spaces
Access to the opposite sex space.

So, not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges of access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

This means this expectation to use female single sex spaces is a privilege that requires female people to accept higher risk than male people. Because, remember there is no evidence that these male people, at any stage of transition, have any lower risk of committing male pattern crime than any other male in the UK.

Why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student.

This is why we see the discussions repeating the extreme activist soundbites because those soundbites appeal to people's wish to be kind, to be righteous and to their lack of understanding about what makes a person transgender.

Those soundbites about 'only a few' are false when you consider the negative impact one male person can have on many female people.

And this is why discussion about 'genuine' transgender people is one we also see very regularly. But the real question should be, why do this group of male people get additional privileges that no one else gets?

All based on a belief about themselves that doesn't reflect material reality.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that so clearly, I appreciate it. I will reread and ponder over it, it makes a lot of sense to me and helps me to see things more clearly. I know where to come if I have questions!

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:22

Naepalz · 02/05/2025 12:10

The thing is, the OP has in my opinion been treated respectfully here, not because of his transman versus transwoman status but because of his attitude.
He has been respectful, polite, insightful and has replied with honesty to the questions he has been asked. He is aware of biological reality and the constraints of his trans status. If a transwoman did the same I'd give them the time of day despite in the past being decried as a hateful terf and a transphobe.
I think that if men identifying as women had kept well away from groups obviously designed for biological woman (miscarriage, menopause, breastfeeding etc) then there would have been a lot less animosity shown towards the trans community. To even attempt to include them in these groups is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone should know they have boundaries

God yes I can agree with that! How could they possibly think that was right smh

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:28

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:16

Another aspect that those censuring women for stating their need for single sex spaces and rejecting the attempts to convince them to allow some male people into those spaces is understanding that just those male people posting on this board is them transgressing boundaries into feminist spaces.

Any male being in single sex space that is not for them is transgressing boundaries to their own benefit. This is a measure of the success of their campaign to lower boundaries to be in spaces that they should be excluded from. Some people don’t recognise when their boundaries are being breached and when they should be alarmed.

There is currently a thread where a father wishes to feed their infant child the secretions from their breast and attend a breastfeeding support group. The space does not have to be a toilet, it can be any space.

Not to mention that those very male people who are there to transgress boundaries want some degree of alarm response. That is part of why they transgress boundaries. Even if it is a microagression on the female person's part of looking closely at the male person who shouldn't be there.

Even if there is no alarm reaction, the thrill of the transgression of the boundaries to be where they know they should not be may be strong.

Male people with sex offence history too often show a long history of not being caught or challenged in their build up to committing serious offence. Of course, this is not to say that all male people are like that. Or all male people with transgender identities are like that.

However, this type of thinking, the one that says to overlook the male people crossing boundaries, allows the person crossing boundaries to keep going and to go further.

I think I'm going to lay down and die about the breast feeding! 🤮 Good god. I need to go away and have a think about things.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:34

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:28

I think I'm going to lay down and die about the breast feeding! 🤮 Good god. I need to go away and have a think about things.

I think that many posters have been in your situation.

SisterWendyBuckett · 02/05/2025 12:37

Thanks so much for this thread - it’s great to hear your perspective and I really appreciate your thoughtful take.

What I want is to hear more from rational, critically thinking transmen…the ‘trans’ space is so taken up with trans identified males, their demands and victim mentality. Not all are like this, but the ones who aren’t are often crowded out too.

I’m really interested in understanding more about females who not only identify as men, but have medicalised too. While I respect their personal decisions and beliefs, I want to know the truth of how they experience the world, I want to support them to not be afraid of truth, facts and reality.

My daughter very suddenly came out as trans 8 years ago, and began a medical path very quickly. She completely cut us off before she started T, but in the few months before that her personality changed dramatically, it was as if she’d been taken over by something and it was very disturbing. I tried and tried to talk to her rationally, but she wouldn’t go there. I now understand she was radicalised. The loss has been very difficult to bear, and I could never understand why she wouldn’t talk to me about any of the issues - other than repeat activist slogans and mantras.

So I’m all for hearing more from trans identified females, and creating a space where we can listen to each other, despite different opinions, with equal respect and care.

MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 12:39

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:28

I think I'm going to lay down and die about the breast feeding! 🤮 Good god. I need to go away and have a think about things.

And the transwoman who attends a menopause group for women going through a bloody tough time.

He rubbernecks at our health issues and inserts himself in conversations that have absolutely nothing to do with him and his experiences. We’re reluctant to bring up a lot of issues when he’s there because it feels invasive and voyeuristic.

If so many of us hadn’t experienced chest feeding blokes in breastfeeding groups, TW taking showers in the women’s changing rooms, turning up at menopause clinics and so many other places very clearly not for them, we might feel less suspicious.

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:41

MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 12:39

And the transwoman who attends a menopause group for women going through a bloody tough time.

He rubbernecks at our health issues and inserts himself in conversations that have absolutely nothing to do with him and his experiences. We’re reluctant to bring up a lot of issues when he’s there because it feels invasive and voyeuristic.

If so many of us hadn’t experienced chest feeding blokes in breastfeeding groups, TW taking showers in the women’s changing rooms, turning up at menopause clinics and so many other places very clearly not for them, we might feel less suspicious.

Ugh it's awful, I had no idea about some of these things. I'm sorry you're experiencing this.

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:44

Hope OP comes back to chat. I'll duck out because I feel I'm derailing. I do appreciate all your responses to me and they've given me much food for thought.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 12:45

And the male people at the rape support groups that are advertised as 'women only'. There is a court case later this year about Brighton Rape Crisis who refused to create a female only group when a rape victim felt that the male person who declared they were a woman was acting inappropriately and showing too much interest in the rape stories.

The centre excluded her from any other group sessions. Her, not him.

I don't believe that any female person would be misusing a rape support group.

GoldBeautifulHeart · 02/05/2025 12:46

From the comments welcoming you OP, I think it proves to me that the majority do not hate trans people at all. They just want their spaces too.

People just hate being being told what to do and if you don't you're an (insert word) ist.

I find the aggressive nature of it very militant and it really puts me off. I was absolutely ripped apart online and told I wasn't safe to be around just because I like Harry Potter. I categorically stated I wasn't a fan of JKR but the way they spoke to me actually made me turn slightly the other way. I've never been spoken to so nastily. I was aghast someone said I wasn't safe to be around because of a book. 🥺😰

When I was growing up, I really empathised with trans people and I thought it must be hard being in the wrong body, especially if your mind doesn't align with that.

I thouht people always got surgery in this case but nowadays a lot don't. I find it harder to accept if someone is female if they still have their dongalong. This might be wrong of me but it's my opinion. I'm much more likely to take someone seriously if they've had the op done. Not just put on a wig and a bit of a lipstick and say they are a woman.

I do think of myself as an ally but I won't rip up women's rights to do so. I also won't be told I can't enjoy a fantasy series because someone doesn't like it.

I also find the black and white ways lack critical thinking skills too. I completely agree with everything you've said.

You seem a very sensible and intelligent human being. Who realises that to make everyone happy, a middle ground must be met. I truly hope your life since transitioning and moving away from the cult like church, is a very happy and peaceful one. I hope you always get to live the way you want.

I just want that for bio women too. And also trans women. I have no issue with that. A third space would be welcomed and I would fight for their right on that absolutely!

potpourree · 02/05/2025 12:53

Thanks for posting OP, and as ever I'm really sad that the "community" that is so often dangled in front of people ends up being unwelcoming and single-minded - but at least you transitioned long enough ago that it sounds like you're not missing much!

Not to make this thread be another "what FWR is like" thread, but generally we've had trans men post on here and they've been thoughtful and understanding. It must be somewhat hard to not feel combative - MN is a mixed bag and someone will always post something snippy ....

vs the TW who have largely fired out insulting word salad or crowbar in odd references to make some sort of argument, then disappeared when questioned on it. There was one TW (obviously no-one can truly say anyone is who they say they are) who had the courtesy to engage with their views, and they did seem to stem from "traditional" attitudes of what men and women are supposedly like.

Everyone contributes something. I hope you stick around.

Seethlaw · 02/05/2025 12:54

@SisterWendyBuckett

"I want to know the truth of how they experience the world, I want to support them to not be afraid of truth, facts and reality."

Feel free to ask any question you may have! (I really do mean any.) I may not be able to answer them, but I'll try! Keep in mind, though, that I'm only one trans man; I can only offer my own perspective and experiences.

I'm so sorry about your daughter :( Am I right in thinking that she was probably in her 20s? From my time in support groups, I do remember that the younger trans men were a bit more likely to be more radical in their interactions with outsiders. They tended to need more social support than the older ones, and to be more likely to reduce communication with close ones who didn't align with their desires. Still, entirely cutting one's family off was extreme and rare - though possibly it's been more common since being trans became "trendy"? Anyway, I'm sorry it happened to you :(

OP posts:
MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 12:56

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 12:44

Hope OP comes back to chat. I'll duck out because I feel I'm derailing. I do appreciate all your responses to me and they've given me much food for thought.

Do you feel you understand more why the transwomen who come here to tell us how wrong we are get short shrift?

Then we get polite, articulate and engaged posters like @Seethlaw and we welcome their perspectives and experiences. Of course we do.

One of the most frustrating lies about FWR is that we’re a hateful bunch of transphobes. We’re not. Many of us have trans people in our families.

What we are is fearless in the defence of women’s rights and boundaries.

ArabellaScott · 02/05/2025 13:02

Hey, some of us have been carefully working on our reputations as nasty vile vipers for a long time, Moist. I've even been called a hyena. <preens>

Helleofabore · 02/05/2025 13:05

I have been told on MNHQ I was personally responsible for men beating up men on the opposite side of the world by one man who I believe is often featured on panels as he is an activist. Panels that should be for women, but hey ho.... he says he is.

potpourree · 02/05/2025 13:07

I have a question for OP but it's more general - I wonder how often in your life is being (or being seen as ) a man/woman actually pertinent, and has this changed since transitioning?

For example, walking down the street, getting on the bus, doing supermarket shopping... I wouldn't expect my experience to be affected by my gender particularly, unless there were aggressive lads or overbearing men etc. But since you've experienced both sides, do you find you're treated differently as a man in more situations than you expected?

Obviously anything that's specifically "for" men or women like toilets will be different, but I was wondering if we're "treated as men/women" rather than "treated as humans" in more circumstances? You would be better placed to notice if this had changed whereas I'm more likely to assume "that's how it is for everyone".

Not sure that makes any sense, I'm also trying to eat a sausage roll while typing!

Seethlaw · 02/05/2025 13:07

@GoldBeautifulHeart

" I was absolutely ripped apart online and told I wasn't safe to be around just because I like Harry Potter."

Ugh, the cult of so-called safety. And its sibling, the cult of purity ("You're not a Good Person(TM) if you like this or that.") I'm sorry you ran afoul of people holding such beliefs.

"I thouht people always got surgery in this case but nowadays a lot don't. "

Well, one reason for that is that it's not cheap, so if you're paying for it yourself, you might not have the means. Young people, in particular, usually just don't have the money. And I don't know very well how it is in the UK, but in my country, it can take a very long time if you go through the "official" channels to have it partly or entirely paid by the state.

Another reason is that it's a heavy surgery, with life-long medical consequences, and some people just don't want to subject their body to such stress.

Thanks for the nice words and the good wishes :) !

OP posts:
Seethlaw · 02/05/2025 13:12

@potpourree

" It must be somewhat hard to not feel combative - MN is a mixed bag and someone will always post something snippy ...."

Hopefully, I'm old enough and experienced enough in internet debates that I won't let my temper get away from me. And so far, the only ones who have annoyed me are the ones claiming to be my allies...

Thanks for the welcome!

OP posts:
PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 13:16

MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 12:56

Do you feel you understand more why the transwomen who come here to tell us how wrong we are get short shrift?

Then we get polite, articulate and engaged posters like @Seethlaw and we welcome their perspectives and experiences. Of course we do.

One of the most frustrating lies about FWR is that we’re a hateful bunch of transphobes. We’re not. Many of us have trans people in our families.

What we are is fearless in the defence of women’s rights and boundaries.

Yes I really do now and I thank you. A lot of food for thought. I'll be following the threads.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/05/2025 13:20

PhoebesPony · 02/05/2025 07:57

OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here. Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter. I find it a bit hypocritical. I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her. Some of the comments about trans women are quite horrible to be honest. I do understand the needs for women's rights and spaces obviously but I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange. You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex yet you are treated with respect on here and any trans women is thrown to the fire. No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman. I guess it's because you now identify as a man and men are not their concern. Fair enough, I get that. But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice. It's a shame for the many trans folk who just want to go about their lives that some have ruined it for them. Anyway I wish you all the best in life, more accepting conversations like this is the way forward hopefully.
Just to add I am not trans myself, just would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women.

It's not really that strange, is it?

We are the same sex as trans men, they are welcome in our spaces regardless of how they identify, they don't come in here trying to mansplain womanhood to us.

This is a feminism board and feminism includes trans men.

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