Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

@Seethlaw
There is something I'd really like to ask you as it is something I've been wondering about for a while but have been loathe to ask anyone else for fear of causing offence, or being shouted down .

I am a 61 year old female. I have never really been very gender conforming and as kid was always referred to as a "tomboy". I have very short hair, don't wear make up and don't generally wear very female clothing. I enjoy quite a lot of what are considered "male" interests. My first relationship was a lesbian one but since then I have been in long term relationships with men and had 2 children. In the past I have been misgendered as a man, which caused me either amusement or a degree of distress, depending on how I was feeling on the day, as I have never considered that I look like a man.
Anyway, despite not ever feeling very girly, I have never felt that the umbrella term of "woman" wasn't wide enough to have a place for me. I wondered why you felt that you could no longer identify as a woman? Was it gender dysphoria or something else that made you take the dufficult decision to transition. If you'd rather not answer this I totally understand but you said you didn't mind questions.

@potpourree

"I wonder how often in your life is being (or being seen as ) a man/woman actually pertinent, and has this changed since transitioning?"

Honestly, in my every day life, the most relevant bit is what I'm called: Ma'am or Sir.

"For example, walking down the street, getting on the bus, doing supermarket shopping... I wouldn't expect my experience to be affected by my gender particularly"

Heh. There IS something but it's hardly quantifiable. And it's not just me: other trans men I talked to mentioned it too*. It's a sense of being more... valid? Of taking more space? Like, we're not ignored as easily in conversations. We're not dismissed as easily. People, both men and women, step around us a bit more (including literally in the street!) Our opinions are treated with more consideration. Stuff like that.

( * Of course, it could just be us projecting our new self-confidence around...)

@Seethlaw - that is interesting as it sounds very similar to what my friends who have had weight loss surgery (or very significant weight loss by other means).

That suddenly they were acknowledged, take more seriously when they spoke, were seen as more valid than when they were very fat, occupied more “social” space even though they were taking up less physical space.

I wonder if it’s that they and you have moved up the social hierarchy? Confidence helps of course, but in their cases they were all very confident women to start with.
🤷🏻‍♀️

Make sure that you always use the toilets per your biological sex. Men don't want to see you in their toilets and personal spaces either. You will be welcomed by us in the ladies toilets. You may just need to explain that you are a biological female though if confronted, but that is not a big deal once you have explained the situation.

The above poster, I believe, has claimed to be a trans woman in the past. Just for context. I therefore assume they are referring to their own attitude to seeing you in the men's.

Edit - I'm not calling mishy a man, just trying to make sense of their post about the right toilets.

Thank you so much for your posts. It’s brave of you to speak out. it’s so interesting to hear your experience of being trans. I’ve been a long time supporter of LGBT and at the beginning of this toxic debate I veered more towards the views of the trans women. However being a feminist I noticed quite soon that those trans voices demanding and expecting to be heard were all male at birth, and I wondered where the trans men were, and what their thoughts were. After reading more around the subject and seeking out differing views I now find myself in TERF category but I’d still consider myself a strong LGBT ally. I believe strongly that trans people should be able to live as they choose but I also do not agree that we should all collude with the notion that trans people are biologically their preferred gender.

Anyway I just wanted to say how happy I am to hear more nuanced and reasoned voices in this subject. Thank you!

Regardless of topic, it is wonderful for someone to so eloquently state their change of view. If only this happened more.

I believe Mishy is a TRA and a wind-up merchant.

Woof! That... that hit right at home. And honestly, if I didn't very, very distinctly remember already feeling like I was a boy when I was six, I would now be wondering if I somehow persuaded myself that I was trans through fandom. I mean, other than an official diagnosis of autism*, I have it all: slash writer, female, attracted to men, most definitely a weird neurotic nerd...

( * My son got diagnosed as autistic as a kid, at which point I went, "Er, I just thought he was just like me??" A few years later, I did try to get tested, but because I couldn't bring anyone who'd known me as a child, and childhood behaviour is what they mostly relied on, they couldn't decide one way or the other.)

Is there anything in particular you wanted to discuss in the article? I definitely recognise the atmosphere and specifics the writer mentions...

You know Mishy, weaponising female people who have taken steps to develop male body cues against female people who might find that distressing is really not the gotcha you obviously think.

It actually highlights just how much you actually hate female people who disagree with you.

It's lovely to hear from you OP. And I hope you have been here long enough to realise ghat the vast majority of terms and GC people on here are very live and let live. I have nothing against trans people wanting safe spaces to call their own. I do have a problem with women's spaces being annexed.

I think facts are very healthy in this fight.
Women are women.
Men are men.
Transwomen are transwomen, though many possess male pattern behaviour of violence and entitlement.
Transmen are transmen, though many possess female patterns of behaviour of accommodating others and making or keeping the peace, and campaigning in non-viplent ways.
Women must keep protected spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, loos, hospital wards, prisons, spas, sports teams, categories and events.
Transwomen have different needs from women and from men. Transmen have different needs from men and from women. Focus on those needs, not on removing the rights of others, and all will be well.

@Naepalz

"I wondered why you felt that you could no longer identify as a woman? Was it gender dysphoria or something else that made you take the dufficult decision to transition."

It's not so much that I could no longer identify as a woman; it's more that I never did.

When I was a little kid, I had short hair and was often mistaken for a boy. Every single time, I felt seen - like finally, someone was getting me, someone realised who I was. It felt utterly right. And when they were corrected, I screamed inside, "No! Why are you telling them I'm a girl? They are right, I'm a boy!"

Then my family got into a very patriarchal church, where I was taught again and again that I was a girl, that I would grow up to become a young woman, then a woman, that I would marry a man, have children, and live eternally as a woman. Because I wanted to please my mother and everyone else, I took this to heart - as much as I could: I was still a terrible tomboy through and through, who wanted to be "one of the guys", had male best friends, dressed as much as possible in male clothes, wished to look more androgynous, and so on.

Then things happened, I dropped my abusive family and the church, and eventually found myself one evening asking myself: "If I don't have to be who my mother and the church wanted me to be... then who am I?" And there, right away, the very first thought that came to me was, "First thing first: you're a guy."

Believe it or not, I wasn't keen on transitioning :P So I gave myself some time to observe myself and my feelings, to think about it. But the more I understood myself, the more it became obvious to me: my female persona had been a lie all along. The real me inside, hidden behind that female persona, was a guy.

So really, it's not that I didn't want to be a woman, or that I felt there was no room for me as a woman. It's just that it doesn't feel right for me to present as a woman. It's a lie. It's what I am biologically, but not who I am psychologically. And no, it doesn't make any more sense to me than it probably does to you :D

Yes, I do think it's to do with "moving up the social hierarchy" as you say. Which is infuriating, but unfortunately not surprising.

Okay!

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

Of course there is nothing wrong with this.

It's all the other stuff - the #nodebate, the getting people sacked, the absolute banning - by social pressure and institutional capture - of any sensible and rational discussion.

Good luck to you - I hope that you don't suffer from the effects of medicalisation. But I have to say, it makes me want to weep that young women live in a society which makes them so anxious about their female body they go to lengths to avoid their femaleness (not talking about learned femininity)

Do you mean me? Thank you. It’s taken me a couple of years to work out my thoughts on this, as I am fairly fair-minded and inclusive. Although an LGBT ally, I couldn’t make my feminist views sit comfortably with trans women in sports, winning woman of the year etc. I’m not sure what the answer is, as trans people absolutely deserve to be honoured for achievements in society or sport, but this should not be under the “women” category, and I don’t feel women’s voices & experiences should be sidelined.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I mistakenly imagined that there was maybe some sort of tipping point, where a largely gender non conforming woman like myself, might somehow believe they no longer "belonged" as a woman, or failed to fit accepted gender norms to a degree they couldn't live with.
Your description of feeling like a fraud if you continued to present as a woman is really interesting and something I had just not considered, so thank you for the education.
It has been helpful to hear a different perspective from the TRA one that is so often at the fore of any public trans debate.
I realise that you have not set yourself up as a spokesperson for trans people, but your approach of engagement and tolerance for other people's points of view is a breath of fresh air.

@Nickers1234 , sorry to nitpick your positive post, but this bit rankles a bit:

It’s taken me a couple of years to work out my thoughts on this, as I am fairly fair-minded and inclusive.

It implies that the rest of us are not fair minded or inclusive, which isn't fair.

Is there anything in particular you wanted to discuss in the article? I definitely recognise the atmosphere and specifics the writer mentions...

No, not really, i just remembered it being interesting - then after I posted it here, realised it was more focused than I remembered on "trendy" trans and Online being "to blame", so I hope you don't think I was getting at that in your case!

My son got diagnosed as autistic as a kid, at which point I went, "Er, I just thought he was just like me??

I really feel this. It's eye-opening seeing your own behaviours being done at you/shared by your kids, and how the behaviours are perceived!

I don’t have time to RTFT right now, OP (but I will later!). I just wanted to say thank you for posting. It’s so appreciated to know there are people like you who are willing to stick their heads above the parapet (and I understand why more don’t, but I do wonder how widespread your views might be within the trans community). I recall a TW on TikTok making the same points as you very early on and being absolutely vilified, torn to shreds. She disappeared from SM.

I feel such rage and sadness at the damage that’s been done to all of us, right across society, by these delusional bullies. Their jackboot aggression and inability to engage in any kind of constructive debate has such created a toxic divide.

I don’t know any woman who had a problem with transwomen prior to this attack on women’s rights and protections, sports and safe spaces. There was much more of a live-and-let-live attitude, a lot of sympathy even. Now many of us have had to take a far more radical, exclusionary stance because we’ve had no bloody choice. I feel like we were politically forced into bed with far right lunatics and Christian fundamentalists, whilst the trans community basically had a bunch of misogynistic MRAs purporting to speak for everyone. Total headfuck.

It’s had a terrible impact on the lives of so many - including transwomen - and has been a net negative for everyone on both sides. Your post gives me hope, though, that there will eventually be a path back to mutual respect and understanding, and a time when this madness will be behind us.

Thanks again for de-lurking!

Hi that’s a fair comment. I guess what I meant was that coming from a LGBT ally perspective, initially I felt that GC arguments were mean-minded and often bitchy (I’m referencing JKR, Sharon Davies & Glinner on Twitter). I couldn’t align with that and so it took me a while to find my true position. I understand now why they, and others, made unkind comments after they themselves had been subject to vitriolic, hateful abuse but this was not clear to me initially.

I appreciate you picking me up on it. I guess I still have a lot of stuff to interrogate as I become more firmly in camp GC. I apologise as I did not mean to imply that other people aren’t also fair-minded & kind.

I don’t actually post on social media often so perhaps I need to take more care to avoid misunderstanding. I’m also mostly a lurker but I was so thrilled to see a) a trans man’s perspective of the SC ruling and also b) that I’m not alone in having nuanced but firmly GC views in the trans discussion. I’ve spent too much time on Twitter which has perhaps skewed my view of the debate on both sides!

Hi that’s a fair comment. I guess what I meant was that coming from a LGBT ally perspective, initially I felt that GC arguments were mean-minded and often bitchy (I’m referencing JKR, Sharon Davies & Glinner on Twitter). I couldn’t align with that and so it took me a while to find my true position. I understand now why they, and others, made unkind comments after they themselves had been subject to vitriolic, hateful abuse but this was not clear to me initially.

I appreciate you picking me up on it. I guess I still have a lot of stuff to interrogate as I become more firmly in camp GC. I apologise as I did not mean to imply that other people aren’t also fair-minded & kind.

I don’t actually post on social media often so perhaps I need to take more care to avoid misunderstanding. I’m also mostly a lurker but I was so thrilled to see a) a trans man’s perspective of the SC ruling and also b) that I’m not alone in having nuanced but firmly GC views in the trans discussion. I’ve spent too much time on Twitter which has perhaps skewed my view of the debate on both sides!

I just wanted to say thank you @Seethlaw for sharing your story.

This has been an interesting, informative thread.

Wishing you well and all happiness for the future. 💐

I love reading good fanfic but fuck me if some of it isn’t the writer trying to negotiate their way through previous abuse through writing. It’s really obvious and jarring when it is. I Check out their tumblrs (because there’s a pattern to it) and so many of these traumatised women and girls are trying to shed their femininity they believe caused the abuse but express some weird hyper sexuality (the kind that comes as a coping strategy) in a domineering icky way to and I just want to make them get therapy.

Its why im less likely to be confrontational when women come on here than when men do.

Its a feminist space and its obvious lots of trans identifying women are working their way throughout some sort of trauma. And if speaking here helps in some way...

I cant support adults pretending to be the opposite sex, though. I cant see how we can hide womens sex to help them through trauma, and not encourage children to think it's possible to change sex, or that gender is a solution for anything.