Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

"Did you observe that transwomen (i.e. who had transitioned to female from male) behaved in a traditionally 'masculine' gendered way toward transmen (i.e. who had transitioned to male from female)?"

More like that, yes. More precisely, it was simply that both groups brought their socialisation to the table, and tended to reproduce them.

So you had trans women (not all of them, but many) taking up most of the talking time, centering their specific problems even in mixed groups, demanding that everyone and their grandmother read their mind and agree to their every demand, and yelling transphobia every time some outsider didn't immediately comply. They also, very notably, failed to share their experiences with one another, or pool their resources.

Meanwhile, trans men tended to stay quiet in mixed groups, only spoke of specific problems in single-sex meetings, politely expressed themselves to outsiders, and considered that outsiders may well have very good reasons to say no, at least for the time being. They also shared every hint and experience they got with the trans men community, and helped each other towards their goals.

If it sounds like a caricature... I can't help it. That's literally how it was.

"Or was it a case of transmen becoming more traditionally masculine and treating transwomen as if they were 50s housewives?"

You know that myth of the 6 foot, muscly, heavily bearded trans man? Yeah, none of us were like that. We were all average size for a woman, and none of us bearded (it often takes some time to happen, if it happens at all). Meanwhile, the trans women tended to also be average size for men. So, yeah, we didn't exactly want to cross them :P Also, we had been women at odds with society's ideals of femininity, so the last thing we wanted was to enforce those stereotypes on anyone else. On the contrary, trans women were the ones who upheld them, to our irritation. (For example: one of them who tried to get onto the trans men forum was quickly rejected because she just wouldn't stop playing the "hee hee, I'm such a girly girl" persona, when it was in the rules that no gender stereotyping would be accepted.)

it was in the rules that no gender stereotyping would be accepted

What a brilliant idea!

Some trans women probably would like that, but they are actively silenced by the activists.

But honestly, I think the biggest problem would be finding enough people to populate those teams :P Most trans people just want to live a normal life, with as few reminders as possible that they are trans, so they wouldn't create or join a trans-only group unless they had no other choice.

You are very welcome here OP, I hope you feel that! It sounds like you have a self awareness and an insight into your condition that others could really learn from. I'm sorry you had to go through what sounds like a very traumatic childhood.

This is such a thought-provoking thread, OP. Thank you for starting it.

And hi to @changedusernameforthis1 for delurking and joining in the same spirit too.

Thank you for sharing this perspective, I think it will help me to understand why the call for affirmation seems so strong for some trans people - to the point that any conflicting beliefs are intolerable I'd say. I've certainly experienced that in my personal life and struggled to understand why respect and acceptance were not "enough" for a friend & they needed my beliefs to be exactly theirs.

Edited to say: I meant to quote OP'S post about early stage transitioners strongly wanting affirmation

Thank you for posting @Seethlaw

Such an interesting thread. Welcome and thank you for de-lurking, OP.

This is so interesting! Slight tangent- you say you’re from a European country, how come your English is so good?

Thanks for posting OP. It's such a shame that the trans movement has turned into the aggressive trans women self ID, affirmation movement. I wish you well. We need more sane trans voices to be heard.

Most thought provoking thread I’ve read in … possibly ever on here! Cheers OP

Welcome, OP! Always good to hear from lurkers.

Thank you :) Well, I went to Western Canada as an exchange student when I was young, then I tried to keep practicing as much as I could (I imported and read all the Harry Potter books in their original version, for example.) Then I married someone from yet another European country, and we only had English as a common language. At the same time, I got onto the internet, where my interests took me mostly to English-speaking forums and environments. Speaking English is damn useful :D

I've been avoiding actively participating in fandom for a decade because it got too political all the time, and I blame the behaviour on Tumblr for ruining the fun of at least 3 fandoms I was part of [/me shakes fist in anger at Tumblr].

These days I stick to reading fanfic (although even that has also gone very weird in some ways so a careful search of tags is highly necessary). I know how wonderful it is to get caught up in fandom, and to find people who love something as much as you do, so I do hope that is still possible for people to experience in the more innocent and less political way that it was for me in the 90s/00s.

Unfortunately, fandom is still on Tumblr and still as toxic as ever. I'm lucky in a weird way, because I'm in a non-existent fandom, so it's basically me and a friend and the rare readers of my fics, and there isn't enough people to create drama. But my friend is also into other fandoms, so I get to live fandom drama vicariously through her, and it's insane.

@Seethlaw thankyou for your posts and another welcome from me

Thank you for this post @Seethlaw it has been most interesting and informative.
Thank you too for bothering to listen to so called "terfs" and for understanding that for people like me it is not at all about denying trans people's human rights but purely about trying to preserve the rights generations of our women ancestors fought, died and went to prison for.
I'm glad you escaped from your difficult childhood and seem to have found some sort of happiness and contentment.

OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here. Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter. I find it a bit hypocritical. I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her. Some of the comments about trans women are quite horrible to be honest. I do understand the needs for women's rights and spaces obviously but I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange. You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex yet you are treated with respect on here and any trans women is thrown to the fire. No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman. I guess it's because you now identify as a man and men are not their concern. Fair enough, I get that. But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice. It's a shame for the many trans folk who just want to go about their lives that some have ruined it for them. Anyway I wish you all the best in life, more accepting conversations like this is the way forward hopefully.
Just to add I am not trans myself, just would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women.

Hey OP, it's really good to hear your voice and thoughts! I'm also a trans person (TW) who isn't really welcome in the main community for having differing opinions and being honest about how the TRAs have caused the problems that they have so I'm always glad to see there's more of us out there!

Thank you for the good wishes!

"OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here."

I highly doubt that. To be more precise: I highly doubt that a transwoman would be torn to shreds JUST for being a transwoman. People would be wary, yes, and she would be made highly aware that she is a man in a place mostly populated by women, but I don't see why she would automatically be rejected.

"Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter."

Did you see me barging in claiming to be a man? No, I didn't. That's the difference with all the transwomen I've seen coming on here so far: I accept my biological reality. I am a biological woman and I'm not afraid to own it. A transwoman is a biological man and they need to own it as well.

" I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her."

I expect to be called she/her. I accept that on this forum, people call you by your sex, not your gender.

" I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange."

I don't. In my experience, transmen are far more likely to be respectful of other people's opinions and of the law, while transwomen are far more likely to be entirely self-centered and demand that other people twist themselves around them, even in their own spaces. That this creates a huge different in how transmen and transwomen are received is only natural.

"You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex"

That is utterly impossible. I'm a biological woman and I'll always be a biological woman. I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man (and because it fits my own apprehension of my body better, but that's entirely personal.)

"No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman."

What would they challenge me on?

"But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice."

People here have shown nothing but respect for my feelings of gender dysphoria, so yes it would be nice if in return transwomen showed respect for the fact that they'll never be biological women.

" would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women."

Why would they, when there are at least two massive differences between the two categories? One is a biological fact: transwomen are men demanding access to women's spaces, while transmen present no threat to women. The other is one of attitude: I'm not the only transman around here, and all of us accept to play by the rules of the place (for example: to be sexed, not gendered), while transwomen typically don't.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Just because both are fruits, doesn't mean they are the same. People around here show me respect because I showed them respect first. Let transwomen do the same and they'll see they can be respected too. In fact, I bet a lot of people here would love to hear from a transwoman who would explain her situation in a reasonable manner, and who would show that she understands why so many women are wary of her and don't want transwomen in their spaces.

Hey, not wanting to derail this thread but I think you make a point and I wanted to reply. I made a similiar post on here a few weeks ago and I wasn't attacked or torn apart, my interactions were all pretty positive actually.

I have seen and read alot of comments on here about TW that make me go 'eek' though, there is a much different attitude towards TW and TM but whilst I wouldn't accept anybody personally denigrating me I also get the fact that there are more males calling themselves TW who are opportunistic fetishists doing gross things than there are TM who are doing similiar and it's normally been 'TW' with the vile threats and whatnot. So I get why we've reached this point, but it's certainly upsetting being lumped in with the likes of Jessica Yaniv after all of what's gone on!

I appreciate what you have had to say though.

Posts from women who identify as men are thought-provoking, but 'possibly ever on here'? If that's your personal opinion, GRCP, fair enough, but I want to balance it with a nod to the many hundreds of other posters on here.

While I agree that it's been great to have exchanges with trans people which are quiet and thoughtful and respectful, I think the FWR [called Feminism: Sex and gender now, so that should be F:S&G - less catchy than FWR!] board is full of thought-provoking, knowledgeable, funny, informative, well-researched posts.

PhoebesPony If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women.
Transmen are women, right? You seem to be missing that important point!

It's not hypocritical at all.

As feminists of course we will always support trans men, aka trans-identifying women as physically vulnerable members of society who have received the same social conditioning as us, and who are not trying to strip us of our identity as women.

Baffled you can't seem to grasp that

There are reasons why transmen's posts and in particular this, and threads like it, elicit a different tone. Firstly, it's an indication of what posters often try to explain: we aren't 'transphobic' or 'bigots'. We have simply been saying that women's sex-based rights, spaces, prizes, sports must remain single-sex because otherwise those sex-based rights disappear. If a right given to females in order to allow them full access to a patriarchal society is then also given to males, those rights become meaningless. So in a patriarchy, it is males, however they present, that endanger females' rights.
Secondly, in reality, the issue most women have is not with trans per se (though many of us I know worry about our ND children in the face of TRAs lies). Our issue is with males because at population level males are bigger, stronger, more violent, more criminal. So the reality is that transmen, being of the female sex, are not, at population level, a threat.
Thirdly, from the posts I've seen, transmen (there was an AMA thread recently too) seem to post in a really different way from the TRAs and from some/most of the transwomen on here who often come across in a very entitled (male) way.

Thank you, even though reading this made me cry. To be understood and for the way people like me think not to be simply and wrongly dismissed as bigotry and transphobia means a great deal. I don't hate anyone. I don't want anyone to live their life in fear. I just want people to listen to the way I think and pause for a minute to consider whether any of it might actually be reasonable.
It is a tragedy that someone like you is not the voice of the trans movement that most people are hearing, or I think, things would be very different.
I would never knowingly misgender you and neither I suspect would most people on here. You have hit the nail on the head when you speak of mutual respect. Most of us terfs are perfectly respectful when we feel respected ourselves.