Thank You from a Trans Lurker

[Seethlaw]

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

Yes I agree with that but I do still think a trans woman would be treated differently even if they were being respectful. But I get it, this is a women's forum.

Well, hopefully, there will be courageous trans people willing to face the ire of the greater trans community, who will come together in some association outside of the LGBT+ sphere, for the time necessary to get the changes done.

"Are you now using womens facilities?"

As mentioned in my OP, I'm not in the UK. If I came to the UK, I guess I'd be looking for unisex toilets. If there aren't any and I really had to go, then yes, I'd be using the women's loos, and hoping that nobody gets scared of me, even for a millisecond.

Here at home, we don't typically have unisex toilets. When there are, I use those. Otherwise I've been using the men's loos, though I've been made aware on this forum that this too can cause problems.

Here you would be refused access to the men's as you're biologically female but could also be refused access to the women's because you look too male.

One thing to remember about this site is there are trans widows that post here and from what I understand, a Transwoman posting feels like just another invasion of their space.

How do you have any idea how "male" the OP appears? Trans men are now expected to use women's loos or unisex facilities in the UK except in very rare exceptions. I know the OP lives abroad but I'd be welcoming of him in any women's space I needed to use.

I used to think like you. A trans woman came onto this forum to plead the case for the genuine tw's who just want to get on with their lives. I wholeheartedly agreed, but pointed out that there were occasions when spaces defined by sex were necessary ( rape crisis centres, medical facilities, the usual) and that I'd be happy to join the fight for safe third spaces, because everybody deserves the right to privacy and dignity.
That's when I discovered that I was, in fact, a hypocrite, a bigot, a transphobe. Once I got over that shock I did as I was told and educated myself. My attitude to trans women (the old fashioned kind) hasn't changed. But now I'm fully behind keeping women's spaces for women. I might be ok with the occasional transwoman slipping quietly into the ladies' at the local pub, but 1. the blatant erosion of sex based rights throughout society has made that more difficult for everyone. And 2. the women who aren't ok with it are important too.

Yup, the clarification of the law does make it a lot harder on many trans people. I honestly don't know what I would do if I were in your friends' shoes.

But I know where I would put the blame: on trans activists who broke the unspoken social contract* which existed previously, that trans people could sometimes, and quietly and discreetly, trangress the law and use the opposite sex's facilities and everyone tried to turn a blind eye to it.

(* for lack of a better word. It's not a contract when one party was not asked for their opinion and agreement.)

Edited because for some reason the wrong words were bolded.

Yes, the 'educate yourself' thing really backfired.

We did.

Sorry I wasn't meaning how male OP may or may not look! Just meant in general someone could look too male.

Not likely, because I don't pass very well. I still get regularly misgendered. So I personally wouldn't have that problem.

Other transmen I know might have that problem. And yet some others would refuse to use the women's toilet because it's too dysphoria-inducing. I don't know what they would do, but I strongly doubt any of them would blame women for wanting to reclaim their single-sex spaces - if only because they'd be too busy looking for immediate and practical solutions.

Oh. Thank you for mentioning that! I wasn't aware of that.

The thing is I do agree about women's spaces, privacy and dignity and the whole situation with sport, refuges etc. I was just pointing out the huge difference with how trans men and trans women are spoken to and about on here. It does seem extreme sometimes and therefore unfair to the majority who aren't causing any bother.

Yes I'm sure that's true.

I can totally understand that

I mentioned it as another explanation as to why Transwomen may be treated differently to the OP. It’s not just down to attitude.

Have you considered that 'transmen' are female people and therefore probably have a very good understanding of feminism and who it represents versus a male person who has tried to force feminists to include them?

Plus, if a male is on a feminism board demanding to be heard, I think it is safe to consider that they are in fact, campaigning for men's rights. Are there any men's rights activists that should be welcomed to a feminism chat board?

I do get your general point. On the whole I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately over the years its been abundantly and repeatedly demonstrated that the type of man who seeks to transgress womens boundaries does so on purpose. That extends to online spaces created by and for women, like Mumsnet, and the feminist board thereon.

I don't believe you. I'm 5'9 and it's VERY rare I meet women taller than me, or even women who are my height. Yet you know TWO transmen who are taller than me. Seems massively unlikely.

I'm sorry but it's true!! There are plenty of tall women out there!

I can't think of any reason why you think I would bother to make it up!

No, there really aren't all that many. Being tall it's something I notice.

Yes obviously trans men will have more sympathy and connection to women's experiences. And yep you're probably right, the men shouldn't really be gatecrashing! 😁

Fine have it your way 🙄

Really? You can't think of a single reason? Sounds like another lie to me.
Quite obviously the reason would be to justify your "the transmen I know are taller than the average British male (5'9) and pass" line.
I'm not going to derail this thread further by responding to you again.

Perhaps I should measure them, they might be 5'9 3/4 or something. They're taller than me and I'm 5'8 1/2