Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Lord knows.

The last time I took part in an in-service day - a year ago - the angle being pushed was that negative behaviour is a trauma response.

Jolyon Maugham is raising money for trans people affected by the verdict apparently, likening his crusade to the anti-racist cause in Mississipi Burning on X🙄 God save us from these pathetic male saviours.

Anyway, anyone who is deeply saddened by the verdict and wants to display empathy can donate to him.

@Diverze - I’m not sure I really understand your position. What does being “trans” mean to your trans daughter? Why does she think she is trans? What, in her mind, is wrong with her being viewed as male and described as he/him, and how does that fit with her knowing she is not a woman and not using the Ladies’ toilets? And what has a bra got to do with gender as opposed to sexual characteristics? What is making her feel better about herself when she wears a bra?

He’s dangling the possibility of taking it to the ECHR.

Only of there’s money to be made for him.

Yes, he isn’t promising anything, just that there is a possibility, for which he needs pots and pots of cash please 💰

Jolyon is the opposite of a no win no fee lawyer.

He's a fee lawyer, who makes no wins.

That man is shameless!

Not sure if this is quite the place for it, or whether it's been posted elsewhere, but here is TransActual's take on it all, which withered my sympathy by how idiotic it is.

transactual.org.uk/blog/2025/04/16/response-by-transactual-to-supreme-court-ruling-on-equality-act/

Yes I have sympathy for transgender people in the light of the ruling (well, not the violent or perverted ones, obviously). They have been sold a lie. Of the ones I know, some certainly have mental health issues and would have been better served by proper counselling to help them like themselves better, or deal with external factors, rather than being told they can change sex.

We’re not being unpleasant towards trans women or denying their existence, we’re just asking for safe single sex spaces for women. Which women want and need. We also want safe spaces for trans women, but for everyone’s dignity women’s safe spaces and trans women’s safe spaces cannot be in the same place.

That is a very good point. I have to explain to my DS why certain things might be considered problematic by others. I don't mock or judge him. I try to simply tell him what others might perceive and how this might impact on him if they think he is doing or saying something socially unexpected (we try not to say rude etc). Sometimes we have to use social stories. For those in the trans community, there will be a lot of difficult explanations and it will be very painful for them and their families but they will need to understand the social rules in order to avoid making themselves more vulnerable when out and about. If like @Diverze's DS trans people use gender neutral or sex specific facilities then there will be zero change to their lifestyle. And they do have clear protection under both gender reassignment and disability via the EA.

@LadyBracknellsHandbagg @DeanElderberry
Tbh I don't know her well enough to either know if she's ok or to argue about her views with her but I do know she is gay and a strong evangelical Christian so she has been navigating through a lot the last few years. I guess she's found a position that works for her and she fights for it online - frequently and with a lot of feeling!

I work in the Arts so I've seen quite a lot of similarly 'devastated' posts over the last couple of days so that one didn't seem that shocking to me. I see the mumsnet bubble and I see the theatre world bubble so am really seeing the two extremes!

Pretending not to understand what “biological” means as a definition of what a woman, or for that matter a man is, just begs the question “Really, is that the only argument you can come up with?”

TransActual pop up again in this piece, in which everyone sounds less crazy. Surprisingly balanced for the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/apr/17/trans-activists-accuse-uk-equalities-chief-overreach-suggesting-bans

Isn’t this stating the obvious though.
She states Transwomen ‘could’ be banned from woman’s toilets ,sports and hospital wards
The point surely is that they of course should be!

Thats what we’ve all been campaigning for. Safe spaces. For women!

Such a shame Stonewall hadn’t used their time, energy and money to campaign for separate spaces for the trans community.

No one needs to worry about 'the definition of biological' the judgement covers it.

Likewise, the reasons for the decisions, and the reasons why women's single sex spaces cannot include any men.

Women need them. Sorry men; you aren't the only people who matter. We've destruction tested (on women) the whole 'some men can come in and it won't be a problem'. It just turned out there was no problem big enough for women that men would actually care about anything or anyone but what they wanted.

*Edited to add: rather like the wholly one sided media onslaught of sadness for men and absolutely no mention of why this was needed for women or will help and protect women from really awful situations. Women just don't matter in the UK in 2025, they're barely mentioned even in passing in laws about them! They're invisible! Apart that is from the ones loudly endorsing and supporting men. Which probably explains their misogyny.

I work in the Arts so I've seen quite a lot of similarly 'devastated' posts over the last couple of days so that one didn't seem that shocking to me. I see the mumsnet bubble and I see the theatre world bubble so am really seeing the two extremes!

Yeah, I'm in a similar situation @miniaturepixieonacid - my FB feed is full of mostly female friends and colleagues shaking in fear for the trans.

I really really want to ask them what is so threatening about clarifying the biological reality of being born female ... But I don't because this is such an impossible topic to have a civilised disagreement about.

I can see their point of view. I think I may even in another life have agreed with them about accepting trans-identified men as women for most purposes. But this is a topic on which agreeable disagreement is impossible - because of TRA stirring & entitlement.

@Diverze
if your dc is not affecting other peoples lives and not imposing anything on them then I’m not sure what your point is.
People can live however they like as long as they are not affecting others.

Honestly
People really don’t care

@Walkaround "What does being “trans” mean to your trans daughter? Why does she think she is trans? What, in her mind, is wrong with her being viewed as male and described as he/him, and how does that fit with her knowing she is not a woman and not using the Ladies’ toilets?"

I don't pretend to know it all. I know it first started in mid teen years and was suppressed (I ignored it, though I knew, was very smug when it appeared to fade after not being either affirmed or denied). There then followed 5 or 6 years of burnout, deep depression, darkened bedroom type scenario. Failed to wash, change clothes etc. social care assessment led to PA support which led to leaving the house more often and a better mental health situation. Then another crash last Summer whereupon a cousin DC is very close to told me DC desperately wanted a dress but was terrified I would not accept them (I was quite vocally GC about child protection failures and a dislike of the ideology being taught in schools). We had a conversation where I assured DC that we would love them always. They explained that they just feel "better" , more "real" using a female name. They have never explicitly insisted on female pronouns but are happy when these are used. They don't tend to go out wearing dresses (occasionally to friend's house nearby). Since known they are accepted it's become much clearer how they have grappled with and been consumed by the dysphoria, and wearing a bra appears to help, as does being clean shaven. Always had long hair. Since we have used female name DC has started volunteering, gets up and dressed every day, does jobs around the house unbidden, and is just lighter and so much happier. Personality wise they are exactly the same. They have not asked us to cover or remove old photos and the name they have chosen is the name they would have had if they had been born female. Middle name is a male name named after DH's brother who died young and DC has not changed this name which I find immensely respectful. They are not rejecting us or the family or our history or rewriting their childhood. They just feel more valid using that name. I don't pretend to understand why, but it has made all the difference in the world.

Recognising that I cannot control responses I would very much appreciate people not picking through this to identify gotchas or tell me why I am an idiot if they do not have a trans identifying child themselves. I knew it all, in theory.
Walkabout, I have answered your questions assuming they were made in good faith. I hope they were. I feel like mutual understanding is important to begin to build a future that protects vulnerable harmless people like my trans daughter AND women and girls.

Aggressive huh.

Like this?

Www.terfisaslur.com

The only aggression I've ever seen over this (and I've been following the issue for years) is from the trans people and supporters.

Of course, not all trans people, but let's not pretend that feminists are going around making similar threats because they aren't.

There isn't middle ground, because something is either women only, or it's not. It's literally a binary issue.

I agree. I was told that my DC was doing harm and therefore should be happy to be called a man, when I said in my first post that there's no need to say that to her face.

If I sound angry, it's because I bloody am.

All the hyperbole.

All the 'you're saying we don't exist' - no one is saying this!

'You're taking away our rights' no we aren't!

Ok
I haven’t gone back over all your posts so I do see why you’ve posted now. Thankyou for clarifying.

Of note
You mentioned a query about whether services will be labelled for bio women etc
Thats a big reason FWS et all have campaigning. No one should have to accept women being called
‘adult human female’
’cis woman’
’biological women’
’person with a cervix’
etc

Its insulting
We are women..Big Full Stop.
We have that now accepted by the SC and no one should be forced to have to clarify who a single sex service is for.

So if a changing room is for Women…..that’s it.
If a coffee morning is Women only…..that’s it.

If trans, non binary etc are included then it won’t be advertised as for Women. It will be for all.

It's not though. They've hyped the risk up to stupid proportions.

is it all about toilets for them?