Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

Well said !

Any normal person can put themselves in your position. And believe me, you are not amongst people devoid of empathy.

But honestly, this may not quite be the board for you, given your situation.

This might explain things to you a bit better.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

There’s no risk to the trans community.
Except maybe losing out on Gold medals in sports !

They have the same rights and protections as everyone else within the Equalities Act.

Well that's sort of my point @Datun The whole thing has been hyped up and contradictory argiments rolled out.

On the one hand "We just want to pee", but on the other "This erases trans identities."

I'm really clear about my position: individuals can live as they like and I'll take them on their own terms. I'll even refer to TW colleagues as 'she' and just get on with them.

I object to TRA ideology trying to dictate to women what we are. TRA ideology is an attack on the fundamental definition of what it is to be a woman.

And I will not go along with the erasure of the fundamental existence of women & girls as a sex class.

That's why I don't frequent the board as much as previously. I came back today as I had a response to this particular thread which appeared on "active".

Recognising biological sex is not an extreme position.

It's reality.

I would also add, when your young person is an adult as mine is, there is literally nothing one can do to prevent this. I accept my young person, or I risk destroying at the very least our relationship.

This is not a robust young adult one can tell to pull themselves together. I have been surprised by the transformation in their wellbeing since being accepted though.

I should clarify my above post further.

Every trans person acknowledges and understands they have a sex.

Otherwise they are unable to trans from and to anything.

Sex is the defining point of being trans!

And yet I've heard non binaries insist that they don't.

Then there are the people that argue that sex is a spectrum....

Just when you think you've found the kernel of sense in it all, it morphs again.

And I am so very very tired of being told to 'be nicer, kinder, be less aggressive etc etc etc'.

No.

Sex is a spectrum - what?!

People will always argue to justify their position.
None of that makes their arguments or beliefs fact though

Unlike the biological definition of sex.

I've no problem with arguments, so long as they make sense...

I can respect someone's pov without agreeing with it, if it's consistent and logical.

Unfortunately, asserting that men are women or that sex is a spectrum are neither.

Right, which is why this is probably not the arena for you, at the moment.

The women here are relieved that they are getting their rights back. You're in a completely different place.

You can't ask the women here to compromise seven, eight, nine years of work on the basis of your situation.

It's not that they don't empathise, it's that the goals are completely different.

You need support from organisations like transgender trend, who understand the situation parents like you are in.

You gave an example

The latter is nearly bullying if there are any trans kids in the school

Respectfully, I disagree. The question was "Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?". I felt I had a viewpoint to give on that subject as a feminist who has empathy (sympathy?) for trans people, particularly as I understand that not all are radical activists.

There are several other threads for discussion by FWR of the implications of the ruling and I haven't "interrupted" any of those as my viewpoint wasn't relevant.

Oh my sweet summer child

Sorry - you need to be clearer. Which pupil, in your opinion, was "making a mock of genders" and what do you mean by "genders" in this context?

I promise that I'm not being wilfully ignorant here: I deal with semantics on a daily basis, and I'd be grateful for clarification so that I can give a full response to your question.

I have to join a Zoom meeting now, but I'll check in later so that I can answer your original question.

The truth is, this ruling enshrines a key right for trans people. The Equality Act gives WOMEN the right to maternity leave and employment protections when pregnant, on maternity leave and afterwards. If the Supreme Court had decided that by ‘woman’ the Equality Act was designed to refer to gender identity rather than sex, trans men (aka biological women) could be stripped of their maternity rights. But nobody cares that trans men have MORE rights thanks to this ruling. I wonder why this is? Could it be because nobody gives a fuck about trans men because they are, surprise!, women? Hashtag patriarchy.

You can have empathy for whatever you please. I have my own priorities.

Do you have empathy and sympathy for all trans people, @Diverze, however aggressive and demanding? Or do you feel some anger towards those who have pushed boundaries so far that they have harmed the cause of those transgender people who understand that they should not invade women’s spaces and claim to be women? Because everything you write just confirms my belief that saying all trans women were women was a travesty, and claiming all trans people are in fact “transgender,” as though that is an appropriate definition for all people claiming to be trans, is also a travesty.

There is more than one reason why people think or say they are “trans” and more than one way of expressing it. Not only do many people appear to have lost understanding that there is more than one thing going on under the “trans” label, but we were heading towards pretending we didn’t even need that label, because trans women were supposedly actually women, and trans men were actually men. How can “trans” people be protected as a legitimate group when the grouping appears to encompass perverts who want access to female spaces to get aroused; men who find it generally sexually arousing to dress up and act like their idea of a woman from time to time or even all the time if they can; people who really think they are women or men stuck in the wrong body; and people who are confused about how they fit into society and feel more at ease expressing themselves in ways that would be considered more usual if they were of the opposite sex?

@Walkaround I am fine with the ruling as a woman, whilst feeling sad that some vulnerable people genuinely think society hates them and that this reinforces that. I don't give a toss about loud shouty TRAs trampling over women for their own validation and ruining the honour system that operated well for tens of years.

I’ve been thinking about this today.

The way I think and understand trans and non binary identities is, I’m absolutely all for people to live exactly as they want, love exactly who they want, and once adult, have exactly what medical procedures they want. I actually don’t think absolutely all trans people are deluded, sick or unable to see the truth. There have always been trans people in most cultures.

What Is not ok (for me) is anything that infringes on the rights of women who have a right to feel safe and protected. We are a vulnerable group disproportionately likely to suffer rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence perpetrated by natal males. Single sex spaces matter where women and children are undressing, very vulnerable for other reasons, or in sports where they’re at a physical disadvantage.

What REALLY grinds my gears is the lazy elision between gender critical perspectives and far right politics, and the idea that if you don’t fully go for the TWAW thing, you’re some sort of neo nazi, Trump-loving trad wife. It’s just so intellectually facile.

Op latest post is talking about 2 completely separate issues. How are can't see that is staggering.

Did it? If that’s the honour system that involved them using women’s toilets, how do you know how many women actually weren’t happy with that at all but felt unable to say so?