Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

When I was in my final permanent post - about 7 years ago - our secondary school had three trans boys. One was stealth and the parent requested that they be excused from PE and allowed to use the disabled toilets.

The other two were open, and continued to use the girls' toilets and changing rooms. (They changed their forenames and had short hair. That was as far as their transition went.)

Eventually, the pupil who was stealth came out.

When I returned to the school on supply a couple of years later, two of the girls had left school and had detransitioned. The third was still at school and had detransitioned.

It’s usually the way it goes with parents of trans children.

Were the pupils disciplined for making mock of genders ?

I call your response provocative reductionism.

You have reduced the arguments to a single proposition based on a false premise. This is not good debate, it's provocative, and you know it.

Its called debate, I thought we were allowed to have it these days.

And ze/zim is just silly.

@diverzewhy would anyone need to non-maliciously point out that you were obese, unless for a health and safety issue with weight requirements? This is the same, there’s no need to go up to people in the street and jeer at them. But we do have to acknowledge their sex occasionally for good reasons.

I was thinking the same. There seems to be quite a few emotive sound bites being posted here.

The comparator was not accurate and was emotive and the situation used to justify that comparison seems hyperbolic.

It's the autism thing that's suss. How long before some idiot starts describing transgender as a comorbid condition.

The LA's policy is that punishments are not issued. Instead, a restorative conversation is held.

However, would you explain precisely what you mean by "making a mock of genders"?

The problem in calling just one male, 'she' is it creates a lie and it blurs boundaries. Boundaries that serve women (and children) in terms of understanding who someone is.

For example, a and b talk about their friend Alex and how they are going to stay with 'her' in a shared dorm. C is invited too and says yes on the basis of her.

Alex is very very nice but C is Muslim and this is a problem but C has had the ability to make informed decisions taken away because the boundaries were blurred. This is something of an issue when they arrive at their destination at 11.30pm and meet Alex there.

There are many similar situations where even though someone is very very nice - the point is that there is an implicit giving of information when you use the simple word her or she that would potentially make women make different decisions, if they knew it was a man. Because it is still important to them.

They don't want to impinge on the life choices of the transwoman, but they do want to make their own choices based on the knowledge of the situations they may put themselves in.

A woman who would never allow herself to be alone in certain situations, should be afforded this ability to self exclude.

Language absolutely matters because it prevents confusion or misunderstanding or really rather embarrassing situations for all concerned.

And from my point of view the use of language is particularly important and absolutely matters to many siblings / other family members in terms of their own well being and identity.

It erases my history and lived experience if I were to refer to my brother as 'she' or my sister. Identity is relational and other do try and find common ground based on shared experiences. I don't want to have to put up a whole pretence nor lengthy explanation - especially to complete strangers. 'He' is of relevance to my life and my experience and the words use matters to me.

You may not share that opinion but it matters to others.

The Guardian News on YouTube

All the comments I read on this and other news sites shorts are supportive of FWS and/or the judgement or in disbelief that in the UK something so obvious had to go to court. I don't comment on YouTubes but these posters really need educating about the situation for women that self id has created in Canada, Spain, Germany, Ireland, Australia and probably loads of other countries.

We are not setting the bar at outright sexual assault. Just being in a small, enclosed space like a toilet or changing room, where you have an expectation of a single sex space, is hugely unnerving for many women. What about their rights?

You are so focused on helping the trans woman feel comfortable, you are prepared to prioritise this over the many more women who will feel uncomfortable. Do you not remotely care about these women?

I have encountered men (who wandered in by mistake i think) and trans women in ladies toilets on several occasions and it is always a huge shock. You simply don't know what is going to happen next. And we shouldn't have to cross our fingers and hope for the best.

This question is quite high up in the rankings of stupid questions asked by people trying to prove a point. It might even be right at the top. Congratulations, you have won the cliche competition.

A restorative conversation by any other name would smell like a debate. Good policy.

And I'd be interested in an answer to your question but suspect it won't be forthcoming.

I very much doubt it would involve debate.

That question gets asked a huge amount in order to try and discredit others as ignorant or bigoted because they don't know any.

Unfortunately, what has been demonstrated is that a large number of posters here, are invested in the subject precisely BECAUSE they know some who identifies as trans.

There's a lot of parents, siblings, wives, children as well as friends and acquaintances and colleagues who have first hand experience of this subject and where it has created problems.

And they come here because they have been ostracised, stigmatised and shunned for asking questions often from a place of love about people they clearly care about. They do the opposite of 'hating'.

Well one could hope for a balanced mediator. Although you may be right that it would be one sided and then progress to punishment.

Great points, thank you.

Exactly. My daughter has a moderate learning disability. She is an adult now and she has male friends who have mlds, autism etc and they all use the gents. No one has ever suggested they use the ladies due to their vulnerabilities. But along comes a movement involving middle class men and children and just see what happens! "Oh how vulnerable they are, they simply must have everything they want". No, boundaries matter.

As I said above, the LA no longer sanctions punishments. (That's been the case for a while. In cases where staff have been hit by pupils, there's no guarantee that said pupils will even be removed from class on a temporary basis.)

Ah, that's not great at all. There are cases like the ze/zim one where it's a good idea, but re violence, no way. How on earth did it get there?

Its is a strange question.

Its implying that its a fear of the unknown. Once we befriend a TW, we'll realise that they are exactly like us.

Or its implying that we are too uncool/not gen z enough/not queer enough to know anyone as exciting as a man with gender.

Or we are permanently online and never venture outside, just talk to women and never communicate with men.

But it misses the point that i could know 100 men with gender, but i still wouldnt know the motivations of every man with gender and wouldnt change the point that SSE are needed, legal and not happening if men use them.

What is harmful is the long term effect of having people play along with unreality, with what amounts to a delusion. It erodes necessary boundaries and infringes upon other people's rights.

It is also arguably quite harmful for someone to entertain a false belief about themselves for a long time......one which other people are also expected to prop up or support. It creates mental fragility and an inability to deal with reality in the person with the false belief. Emotional and psychological resilience means needing to deal with reality as it is, not as one would like it to be.

You must know that this discussion simply cannot be held on the basis of individuals.

If you're reducing everything down to you can't hurt someone's feelings, then almost any discussion is fucked.

The fact is, because of sexism and misogyny, women need their sex class, their spaces, their rights and needs ring fenced. You can't take them because it makes somebody else feel better. it's just misogyny to use women in this way.

Everybody understands that you love your child and want the best for them. And they also understand exactly how children have been given the tools to manipulate everyone around them, including parents.

If your child is unhappy because of their sex, it is that which needs addressing. Pretending to be the opposite sex is a symptom and is masking something else. And yes, autistic people are over represented in the trans community. That should be raising questions everywhere.

You will not find women willing to relinquish their rights, because an ideology has grabbed hold of vulnerable children and made them think they're in the wrong body.

You will find them advocating for some reality based, truthful therapy.

No one wants unhappy children. But you're never going to get compliance from women - because of sexism, and the rest of the world, because of reality.