Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

So yes. I hear, understand and agree that women’s competitive sport, for example, isn’t a place for trans women. But all the trans women who aren’t interested in competitive sport, there is space for them alongside us, right? We don’t have to be unpleasant towards them or deny their existence?

There are feminists with gender crustal beliefs and there are those without gender critical beliefs

Of course it’s possible. It’s possible to be a feminist and have a range of opinions and feelings about a whole host of things. It doesn’t mean we’ve had an empathy bypass! Suggesting that it does would be illogical, to say the least.

Would the transwomen that you know and like insist that they have a right to get changed in the same space as you, at work, where changing from uniform was required, without you being able to complain? (Complaining would lead to your suspension if you complain?)
Are they competing for titles, sporting or other, on the basis that because they ID as a woman, or have paperwork that says they are a woman, they are a woman?
If they were police or prison guard would they insist that they were allowed to search women even if same sex searching is legally required?
Would they gaslight someone who complained they were in a female only space by saying there were no females here?
Would they (if transwomen) want to be allowed into a lesbian dating pool and cry transphobe/bigot if not permitted to do so?

Not all trans people are the same but some are definitely demanding rights as in the above examples. Today's judgement makes it clear that transwomen should not be able to demand these as legal rights on the basis that TWAW.

If your friends are not demanding these sort of rights then this decision should not affect them. This is not an anti-trans call, it really is about clarifying where women can feel safe and where they can demand privacy from men (however they ID). The waters have been muddy for a long while and some very undesirable people have exploited this.

No one here is doing that.

Agreed, the stuff about loos is nonsense.

No one denies their existence we just don’t want males to exist in important single-sex spaces like refuges, prisons and changing rooms.

As the judgment says, this was not a determination that allowed people to be nasty, or that allows them to be automatically excluded from society. It allows women the right to women only spaces.

in law in the UK there is no such thing as non binary.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate

therewas a recent appeal by I think an American wanting their non binary stays recognised n the U.K. which was rejected (with knobs on)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyve4m79e6lo.amp

Where does thw judgrment say you should be unpleasant towards trans women?

There are a lot of religions I don't believe in. While I don't go around shouting that I 'hate' that particular religion, I still don't believe in it.

I don't believe non-binary is a thing. While I don't go around shouting that I 'hate' non binary people, I still don't believe in it. Am I callous? If someone who is non binary expressly wishes for me to believe what they believe, am I callous?

Tell that to the little girl raped by a transwoman in a supermarket loo, or to the women who have been filmed peeing or had their toilet noises mocked online by transwomen, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Who is denying their existence? You are spouting hyperbole. Their existence has been made very clear to people here ! Men and women get along most of the time and someone’s gender is mostly utterly irrelevant to most people. Many people don’t have a gender but most of these people can accept that others feel it’s important to them. Not denying anyone’s existence or anyone’s mental image of themselves. Just recognising it for what it is. Not sex and sometimes sex matters

'It's just a feeling I get' - that's the problem. You're talking about feelings, not reality.

The reality is that people on mumsnet are fully supportive of individuals with gender dysphoria being accepted and provided with care, just not supportive of them entering wrong sex services/areas/sports/prisons/refuges etc.

Women don't need 'protecting' from trans women. It's the biggest misunderstanding of recent years in this area.

When you say they "are just people, trying to get on and live their lives in peace" do you mean they want to get on with their lives as a trans identifying male who respects female only spaces as being off-limits to them or do you mean they want to get on with their lives pretending that they are female and should be allowed access female only spaces?

Perhaps you could pop over to trans Reddit OP & put the same question to them but substituting women for trans ppl and see how far you get

I deny that they are women, not that they are people! Of course they exist. But no, their place is not alongside us because they are not women, in the same way that men can be allies but since they do not experience the same kind of sex-based oppression which women do, they cannot be leading the fight for women’s equality.

What exactly does it mean then?

Yes. I 100% agree that there are concerning issues around the fact that so many young girls are seemingly opting to be “trans” rather than opting to be girls who differ from societal norms. The proportion of young trans men compared to young trans women suggests that there are some serious underlying problems that we need to look harder at.

This is the sort of thing I mean. Because I also know young people who are coming out as trans or non-binary and I don’t want to belittle their choices or undermine their feelings. I want to be able to investigate, explore and try to understand both sides of the debate.

Women do need protecting from men - that's the whole reason for single sex services.

As individuals who identify as transwomen are a sub group of men, they are part of the group that women need protecting from.

Unfortunately, women need protection from males, regardless of their identity. Obviously not all males are a threat but the only way to ensure that protection is to ensure female only spaces are not open to males regardless of their identity.

Trans women are men

so you believe that women never need protecting from any man in any circumstances and that there should be no single sex spaces for women at all ever

Of course it is. I like all the trans people I have met personally and through my work. I worry for a lot of them as their choices don't seem to make them happy on the whole.

I'm concerned about the messages our young people are being given today.

The ruling is "alarmingly dangerous" and "trans people will die" because of it

"Trans people's lives are considered disposable" .

A completely irresponsible message to be giving to young people by an author. I'm sure there are more but this is the one that I tripped over.

So I have a lot of empathy for young people who aren't being given a message that contains the sense of perspective that was given by the judge when he announced the ruling today.