Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

I agree with that, too. It's a red herring

When you whinge that 'your lovely friend' should be an exception and women should put up and shut up

You support the man who multiply raped a woman on the mental health ward he'd self IDd into, leaving her so badly injured she may never be able to have children.

You support the prisoners who have harassed, intimidated, assaulted and raped women in prisons.

You support the man who is a police officer who gets to strip search a woman as part of validating his identity over her right to not have to take her clothes off and be handled by a man

You support the rape service who told women the price of help with their rape or access to refuge was conditional on putting the needs of men above their own

You support the men who carried out the elimination of women's groups, lesbian groups, women's health and illness support groups that were driven under ground or out of existence

You support every man who has excluded women from the women's spaces and did not care.

Essentially you support the very greater importance of any man over any woman. You do you. The law thankfully has decided otherwise.

It is not an unreasonable expectation that he meets his needs without using women.

you have to wonder, don't you? Hypothetical Man expects women to meet his needs, but also a bunch of women are telling women they need to meet his needs too.

I have to say, that is why this board is so useful. I know everyone is a little pissed off at being asked to empathise with the very people who created this mess, or perpetuate it maybe, but aside from that, realising how women are just automatically expected to mop everyone up, is quite the eye-opener once you see how prevalent it is.

Sounds like 'the daughter' is in fact male.

It depends on the client group.

Supporting trans ideology seems to be particularly fashionable among certain middle class pupils in my experience. (I acknowledge that your experience is different.)

Other pupils have expressed rather more cynical views.

I had one case where a boy announced "My pronouns are ze/zim!" (It was clear that he wasn't being serious.)

His friend replied: "Aye! And mine are yer-slash-maw!"

In another school, a 15 yr old boy berated me for saying "Ladies and gentlemen - you may go."

"That's sexist!"

"No, it's not..."

"Someone in this class might not identify as male or female."

"I actually checked the register at the beginning of the period. Everyone in the class is listed as being male or female." [I had actually checked.]

He accepted this, but then insisted on lecturing a female pupil who told him that there were only two genders. "Actually, there are 64!"

As they filed out of the classroom, they were still arguing.

You don't have to be sorry for us, we are fine.

What specifically is my trans daughter doing that hurts anyone or impinges on any else's rights or safety? I am not talking about TRAs or trans women in general, I mean my specific trans child as described in my post?

She doesn't use female spaces. She does wear a bra with her jeans and t shirts. Is that harmful? She does occasionally walk down the street whilst wearing a bra under her clothes. Once she used a toilet marked "all genders" at a motorway services, otherwise she doesn't use the toilet or uses the men's.

In what way would it be helpful to say to my 23 year old that they are a man? She would say she is trans. Just trans. She agonised for 9 years thinking we would reject or disown her (thanks, TRAs for convincing her we would hate her). She is happy just to be accepted as she is, a trans person, not a woman nor claiming to be, but not comfortable being called a man either. I am obese, fully aware of that fact, and would still be hurt if you, random person in the street, felt the need to point it out to me. Don't you think I know? Don't you think she knows?

I just watched Helena, a transwoman who sometimes gives commentary on Novara media. In a segment on this ruling Helena suggests that there needs to be further clarity about what this ruling actually means for trans people and for them as a "transwoman" the hill to die on is "Not having access to those spaces (i.e. Women's single sex spaces) will be the straw that breaks the camels back" and that "without access to those spaces (they) wouldn't be able to exist in society".

So transwomen need access to women's single sex spaces in order to literally exist now.

Towards the end of that segment they reiterate that "single sex spaces" and their continued access to them is the key thing and if they couldn't have that here they would leave the country and go elsewhere to someplace they would get access I imagine.

At no point is their any mention of third spaces as a viable alternative to males in women's single sex spaces just lots of faux confusion over how anyone would possibly know what their biological sex is.

I don't think this issue will go away, its clear that access to women's single sex spaces in a major issue for transwomen and I can see why, if they have no access to women's spaces it completely undermines the illusion which will of course shatter the fantasy that they are anything other than male interlopers.

I actually called her my "trans daughter". Yes she's male.

Eddie Izzard's blatant breaching of the boundaries by inserting himself into women's toilets had absolutely zilch to do with safety.

I can imagine some men with trans identities are quite vulnerable though, and genuinely afraid of male reactions and responses...this where a single gender neutral facility, alongside the single sex ones would be a good option.

"There's no need to call her a man, that's hurtful. She does no harm. We both know it's the reality but I guess it's a bit like calling someone fat to their face, or ugly. One can secretly acknowledge the reality but be polite enough not to express it in a hurtful way."

The comparators here are inaccurate and emotive.

Using the precise language that someone is a man should not be considered to be a judgement such as the terms fat and ugly. There is no judgement in using accurate language.

What there is however, is emotional manipulation in that statement.

Why would it be hurtful to call a biological man a man?

It’s not being called fat, ugly, racist etc, being male is not an insult, is it?

I genuinely don’t understand how stating the truth about being male or female can ever be ‘hurtful’?!

And you may do that, but it sounds like you’ve told your son that everyone else will go along with it too.

With any luck, he’ll grow out of this, and everyone can talk sense again.

Well this is it isn't it? There can be no compromise. Either men's desires are capitulated to or females get privacy dignity and safety. 51% should get what they need but men always trample all over women so...

It isn’t hurtful, they just pretend it is to hold people to ransom.

Well, yes and no. Whenever we start talking about toilets, particularly when keeptoiletssafe is around, we realise how elegant and useful sex-segregated toilets are and how much we all lose by not having them. And to some extent they're governed by other laws, so it can surely only be a matter of time before those laws, not just the EA, are retro-interpreted to mean sex is sex.

There's no need to call her a man, that's hurtful. She does no harm.

It is discordant to make a statement that says that there is no harm involved while telling people that they need to use specific language.

There is a limited kindness to supporting someone's false beliefs, particularly when eventually they are going to have to encounter the limits of reality.

Other people have rights too.

Your choice, and understandable. But you should make it clear that other people aren’t in any way obliged to do so and expecting that they will is a futile and unreasonable demand.

its clear that access to women's single sex spaces

AND THE WOMEN IN THEM

is a major issue for transwomen

Understandably so. But those women are not resources for their use.

Twitter was bad enough. I was there when Rachel McKinnon made the 'greasefire' comment (before becoming Veronica Ivy).

I agree they claim they need access to our spaces for their own safety but really its about the validation they get from women's spaces and as you point out the women in them that is really important to them. Whether that access is free given by women or coerced and forced on them is not so important obviously. Because to these males women are non people and their needs and desires are not that important, certainly not compared to theirs. How male can you get?

If your child is not female or a woman and just trans, whats with the 'hers' and 'shes'?

It might appear to be insignificant, calling men and boys she/her are helping to confuse what it is male and female.

Telling children that a man is a she/her is one step from telling them that hes a woman, and that leads to any men being women.

The crucial points about safeguarding is that we know people ages and sex. By queering this language for male happiness, we are putting vulnerable people at risk.

There is going to be so much pushback. The NHS is very captured, so many emails today saying people may feel vulnerable and need support which is causing a lot of discreet eye rolling in the office. But the women’s support group sent an email basically saying how heartbroken they are and TWAW. I think they need to rename their group.

What the fuck do you know about what I have said to my kid?