Is it possible to be a feminist and also have some empathy for transgender people today?

[HoundOfTheBasketballs]

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert here but everything feels incredibly polarised. Like, either you’re with us or you’re against us.
Is there no middle ground in this debate?
I am, and always have been a feminist, but I know and like people who are trans and non-binary. I can’t be the only person feeling confused and conflicted, can I?

It's a useful clarification that will protect women who need single sex spaces from trans women who want to access them. It will have zero effect on trans people's everyday lives, except the right wing media will push the erroneous view that trans women have lost and women have won, and all the anti trans comments will come out. Trans people are still legally protected because being trans is still a protected characteristic. They have lost nothing. The trans people i know are just getting on with their lives like everyone else and have no interest in making people feel unsafe. It's useful to have clarity but I think it will unleash a lot of nastiness from people who want to stoke hate and division.

Is this the kind of thing you are talking about when you say it will unleash a lot of nastiness

https://terfisaslur.com/

I can't empathise tbh because nothing bad has happened to transpeople. they still have the same rights as everyone else 🤷‍♀️

‘Have empathy’ is just another version of BE KIND BiGOT!

It is indeed an argument based on manipulative premises. You might as well say the majority of men are not going to harm women, so women don’t need protecting from men at all.

I’m glad so many posters are calling out the manipulative appeal to female socialisation.

I agree this is so key. Women are socialised to be kind and always assume the best in people. Like when I was a teenager and a man sat next to me on an empty bus. My gut told me to get up and move away from him as fast as possible but in my head I was thinking, maybe this is just where he always sits, I don't want to make him feel bad, maybe he's lonely, if I move he might be offended yada, yada, yada. Then of course he proceeds to try and molest me, taking my silence as compliance. When in fact I'd been put in danger by my own self doubt and worry about hurting his feelings. We can't keep raising our daughters to be like that. Although look at the reaction when we do change the script whether that is over male access to female spaces or women in general saying no to any man. Look at the back lash, women are too picky, women have over inflated opinions of themselves, women need to be kind and give men a chance, its all the same shit.

And can we all be 100% clear that this is all coming from the far left wing.

When middle grounds have been offered (eg in US swimming), trans-identifying men weren’t having it. They don’t want a middle ground, on the whole, they want women’s spaces, prizes, competitions, organisations etc.

I think people are failing to grasp the idea that men can be both vulnerable and it not be appropriate for them to be in womens spaces.

We can see that gay men, old men, disabled men can be vulnerable, but we wouldn't think of allowing them to be in women's public toilets,changing rooms, or on all womens shortlists.

But this understanding fails when the men have a gender identity?

Its because the people arguing for their inclusion, despite saying they know they aren't women, do believe that they arent real men either. Therefore cannot be accommodated in the same way all other vulnerable men are.

But people are born either male or female and people cannot change sex. So there is no such thing as a person who is neither a woman nor a man. Its an unnecessary accommodate they expecting of women.

Too bad. They'll have to accept that or just not participate now. At least in the UK.

@Diverze

if you've been on this board, you must know, full well, that women here make a distinction between middle-aged fetishistic cross-dressers, men with genuine gender dysphoria, and children and teens being sucked into the ideology.

Thread, after thread, after thread about getting this ideology out of schools, writing to every school, the department of education, MPs, the lot.

There's a fag paper between how much time is devoted to children in this, and adults. Children are never far from people's minds. This is Mumsnet after all. (There are two boards devoted entirely to LGBT parents and/or children.)

Furthermore, almost no one here even believes in a trans child. I don't believe in trans ideology at all. No child is trans, no adult is actually trans - they've either got a fetish, or a version of body dysmorphia.

Children have been sucked into a sexist, misogynistic ideology, limiting and restrictive, and that only serves adult men.

But it doesn't help conflating many different strands of this ideology in order to come to single conclusions.

But the one bloody thing you can conclude, above everything else, is that women, their sex class, their spaces, and their very concept is the stand out thing that is being used by bloody everyone, across the board.

We are not tools. we're not everyone's resource.

I've said this before, but I'm going to repeat it, men who say they are trans are not using women spaces, they are using the women in those spaces.

Without the women in them, there would be no validation. The space is just four walls and a ceiling. If all the women left and went to a different space, that new space would become the focus. The presence of the women is crucial. Without them, the space is meaningless.

You've got bloody people on this thread saying 'but it's not all men that want to use you, only some of them,
why are you being so mean!'

Women are not a resource for people to use fucking willy-nilly. We're not therapy, we're not validation tools, and nor are we empathy machines.

Of course we have bloody sympathy for children sucked into this ideology. There are dozens of women here with children who identify as trans.

So, it's not fair, or right to expect a one size fits all reaction from women, the very fucking day after they are finally told after seven bloody years, that they even are women.

And seriously, if anyone is looking for empathy all I can say is read the damn room.

Yes, there was a Masters open swimming event put on. No one turned up.

Is quite extraordinary, isn't it??

Women are the bloody ones who've suffered throughout this entire issue.

We're not the ones who have misled every school, every university, every public department in the land, we're not the ones who pushed the ideology, the drugs, surgery, we're not the ones that have erased the very concept of homosexuality, but we're the ones getting fucking told off and asked for empathy!!

No wonder trans ideology works so bloody well. The most sexist, misogynistic piece of crap in the world has found a ready audience with people who firmly believe that women are second class citizens, and not only do their needs not matter, they've got to empathise with the people who want to remove them!

And this is a feminist board! Fuck me 😂

That is the only way to deal with it from now on. When someone asks where should this vulnerable trans woman go? The response should be - good question where do all the other vulnerable males go?

Yea I don't see the issue with creating a transtoilet FFS. It's not a large population of people. And yet toilets became the battleground of this.

In the 10 years I've been writing on here about this, a third space has been suggested almost on a daily basis.

It's never been wanted.

There's no validation in a space that doesn't have the women in it.

Yes, I know - the Kirkcaldy attack happened only a few miles away from me.

This is the report from our local paper:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Toilets are the battleground because it’s a weak area - many toilets are unisex anyway in smaller places and most people shut the door - so it’s the best one for us to be led too

a hospital bed, an open shower or changing room , a sports pitch - these are sidestepped for a toilet to make us look silly I suspect

Im sorry for you and your daughter but it isnt the same as not telling someone they are fat or ugly. People who are fat or ugly arent hurting anyone, no impinging on anyone elses rights or safety. Saying your daughter is a man isnt cruel its a fact. Telling them they arent is isnt kindness or polite, its cruel. And its dangerous to women.

It's my theory that toilets come up so often because it's a quick validation exercise, that you can make every day, almost anywhere.

I absolutely do not believe it's got anything to do with safety, because where are the receipts?

It's the same as any situation where men take up positions which allow them to come into contact with possible victims, and is borne out by the statistics which people have already posted.

The number of dangerous criminals claiming to be trans is much higher than it should be, given that only about 1 per cent of the country's population is trans.

Women through this mad ideology and the invasion of colonisation of their spaces have been excluded, harassed, told they cannot be lesbians and they have to be queer and learn to cope with straight sex because the man wanting them to provide sexual services shouldn't be upset by the news the woman in front of him cannot and does not want to fancy any male bodies even his (shudders at the memory of the wail 'but the mouthfeel of my lady dick will be totally different to a man's!') several have successfully prosecuted rapes and assaults, MANY won't have even managed to report it....

and you're whinging at women to be sorry for the poor men now told to stop using women in women's spaces.

I do not care if the man wanting to use me as a resource - emotional or sexual, how do I know - is lovely or not. I don't want to be used. I am not his mum. I am not his therapist. I don't want him there. I don't care if he is distressed by this, I am not a resource put on this planet for his use. He is going to have to find answers that do not involve me or other women. It is not an unreasonable expectation that he meets his needs without using women.

Toilets are the battleground because if you steer all conversations to the question of toilets you can ignore the fact that men have been put in womens Prisons and are in womens rape support groups and other more tricky matters.

(My comment is general and not aimed at any particular posters on this thread)

KnottyAuty Genius. I never thought of that rebuttal. I am going to be using this one.