Lesbian mistaken for trans woman in woman's bathroom in Arizona

[Christinapple]

https://www.advocate.com/news/lesbian-mistaken-transgender-arizona-walmart

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/masculine-looking-cis-woman-confronted-by-cops-in-walmart-restroom-kalaya-morton-demands-justice-video/ar-AA1AdWpn

But I thought people "can always tell"?

It also led to the irony the only males in the bathroom were two male police officers who were notified by a store employee who mistakenly thought a male had entered the woman's toilets.

"In an alarming incident at a Tucson, Arizona Walmart, 19-year-old Kalaya Morton*, a Black cisgender lesbian, was confronted by two male sheriff’s deputies while using the women’s restroom, sparking outrage and a demand for accountability.
Morton, who identifies as masculine-presenting or a “stud,” recounted the humiliating encounter that occurred when a store employee erroneously assumed she was a transgender woman. The saga began innocuously enough: Morton had entered the restroom with her ex-girlfriend, who was kindly handing her a tampon— an act of friendship that, unfortunately, soon spiraled into something far more troubling. In an exclusive interview with The Advocate, Morton detailed her shock when the two deputies barged in, shining flashlights into the restroom stall.

“You have to get out of here. You have to come out. We need to talk to you.” Imagine trying to pee in peace, only to have the police storm in like it’s an episode of Cops: Restroom Edition.
“I’m still using the restroom. I’m sitting down, I’m peeing. What is the issue?,” Morton incredulously told the deputies as she sat there.
Now, while most people hope for a streamlined bathroom experience, Morton was treated more like a suspect than a bathroom user. The deputies apparently needed to crack the case of “Who Looks Like a Man in the Ladies’ Room,” a particularly absurd mystery, if you ask us."

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Yes, I predicted Bunny wouldn't need to reply.

I am sorry. I confused you with Helpmelosemymind.

No, I am not calling you a liar nor a TRA. I am not entirely sure of your stance on men in women's loos.

Your argument is flawed.

Men will enter spaces where they hope to encounter a lone female.
If they first encounter a lone female they may be sucessful and sexually offend in the space.

If they encounter a group of females the females are at lower risk and may be able to contact the police in time to have the male arrested or at least offically identified as part of a criminal investigation.

This acts as a deterrent to males who dont want to risk being discovered.

If women ignore the male because a sub-group of men claim to have a right to be in the space the male has sucessfull avoided "detection". There is no deterrent and he may continue to stake out the location untill such time as he encounters a lone female and sexually offends in the space.

An objective of No males in female spaces is that every male is aware that the police will be called and their details will likely be recorded during investigations into alleged criminal activity (outrage to public decency etc)

That is a step in safeguarding while society still recognises that men will continue sexualy offend as and when the oppertunity presents its self.

I am happy to PM you with some more details, but I do not want them in public on here.

Thanks, you're all right. I'd rather not get into PMs.

As it has nothing to do with me and is not relevant to me, and you're not prepared to explain on the thread, I don't see any point in talking about it.

I want to keep women safe. And I fear (and this is just my opinion) that while so much focus is given to trans people, the spotlight is drawn away from the most dangerous people. I want to keep the conversation open to include discussion on the men assaulting women in toilets, not just trans women (I am using these words to provide a distinction between them). That there is a bigger risk in public toilets than trans women.

But also - for obvious reasons - I don't want it to become socially acceptable that any women that any person may suspect to be abused. That any tall woman who doesn't look like barbie be abused - and yes, one of the friends has received quite horrible abuse (she couldn't give a toss about it, but other people when faced with such things might) from other women. One particular night in a pub with her, two women who had very nastily confronted her in the toilets came back and pointed her out to their group and she then received quite hideous comments from them, men and women alike. I am cross that people seem to think it's OK that the other friend was doxed and was even trending on twitter at one point, because one man decided she was male and then others all jumped on his bandwagon (no, this friend isn't famous. She previously did a job that the man didn't agree with, even though she was no longer in the job and his information was completely incorrect).

The conversation is open. You do whatever you see fit and so will others. There is nothing to argue about.

None of us want any men in women's spaces. Sorry for your friend but it has nothing you do with women here.

Man decided that friend was actually a man because she once did a job he didn't approve of. Man then posted a number of times on twitter, to his half a million followers, that she was a man. Included her full name and a photo of her. And her previous employer.

Mans followers all jumped on this. Other high profile people on twitter joined in. A Female right wing activist with over a million followers made a video about friend being a man. Including her full name. Other children at her teen children's schools saw the video. As you can imagine, it was very very unpleasant.

Thank you. It is good the Trust understands the dangers of floor to ceiling cubicles for their patients. Given the nature of what is happening in toilet cubicles around the country, I hope more people understand the dangers too.

It was a bit disingenuous of you to say that:‘Do a dive into sexual assaults and rapes in toilets in the UK over the last 10 years. Or 15 years. Firstly, there has been no increase in numbers - which you would have expected if trans women were the problem.’

You don’t appear to have any more data than I have at a national level. There has been an increase in rapes in the U.K. over 15 years. You don’t know where these take place. Of the proportion, however small or large, that take place in toilets you don’t know if the recent changes in designs are affecting these figures because no one has compiled the data as a set. This is vital for safeguarding against VAWG.
www.statista.com/statistics/283100/recorded-rape-offences-in-england-and-wales/

Also, as has been repeated said, it’s men that are the problem. So your increase in numbers statement is confusing. If men are allowed access to women’s toilets ie. more are becoming unisex, then it is irrelevant because there is no net increase or decrease in men.

There will be multifactorial risks - what we need is robust data. If there is any data you would like to share, please do so. We need to design for safety.

*nothing to do

Can you understand why it is related to this thread? Considering the original post??

I want to keep the conversation open to include discussion on the men assaulting women in toilets, not just trans women

As both are men there's no need for you to distinguish the two, put them into different categories, or make out like women are only bothered about men who claim to have a special identity. It's only you doing that.

Women don't want ANY man in spaces, toilets, sports etc etc where they don't belong. Nice men, horrible men, trans women. Men.

How does one tell the difference between a nasty man and a trans woman who has no nefarious intent?

Yes I can see why you posted it in response to the OP, but neither incident has anything to do with women on this thread.

The above, plus, it's hard to prove rape because of "he said, she said" and "reasonable person" tests surrounding belief in consent. It's often easier to prove a lesser offence if the criteria for that offence are strictly defined and don't involve any "reasonable person" test, such as if the offence is trespass, where it's easy to prove that a "female" sign that implicitly excludes men exists.

Think of how the FBI couldn't get Capone on any of his criminal Mafia stuff because no one would speak against him. But they could prove without witnesses that he'd failed to declare and pay taxes on his income from these criminal activities, and so he went to jail.

The police might fail to make a case for sexual assault in a women's loo. But they can prove that a male was in there far more easily and throw the book at him for that. If we can't even call the police about a man in the women's loos any more because he might be trans, and the police won't arrest him and might arrest the woman making the call for "hate crime" instead, that ability to get someone on the easily-proved minor offence disappears.

Plus also, if you consider the Swiss Cheese model of risk, letting men walk in unchallenged removes at least one layer of cheese.

Mans followers all jumped on this. Other high profile people on twitter joined in. A Female right wing activist with over a million followers made a video about friend being a man. Including her full name. Other children at her teen children's schools saw the video. As you can imagine, it was very very unpleasant.

It does sound unpleasant. Social media can be awful for that sort of thing. People should think hard before they post about individuals, I definitely agree with you on that.

You attempts at demeaning individuals is rather sad.

You are moved your goal posts in an attempt to tailor your narrative from the computer is doing it to the individual is doing it.

You may not be an expert on how to locate individuals who are engaged in acts of public indecency but you can suddenly be an expert on what is a TRA? Thats a classic reworking of the TWAW but not that TW ploy

Your conduct is informative to readers.

[(Edit)
Helpmelosemymind · Today 14:53

AnSolas · Today 12:05
Sexualised is a cute term.
The language shell game with shame and blame attached.
Sexed bodies come with sexed body parts.
Using correct terms is not using sexualised language.
Show quote history
So why is me saying genitalia creepy? It's the correct term.
Penis and vagina are sexed body parts. Cock, balls, dick etc are all sexualised terms. I'm sure you'll find on twitter very rare that porn is posted under titles with penis and vagina in the titles. But they'll be searching for threads discussing dick to y'know share dicks.

Edited to show post I was replying to]

Yes. The man in a dress and wig who masturbated in front of me in the ladies' toilet may have called himself 'trans' or not. It's really pretty irrelevant - although I wonder if other people who saw him enter the ladies, shortly after a seventeen year old girl, may have wondered whether they should say anything and whether they'd have hesitated on account of the wig and dress.

Children and their parents were abused by cyberflashing when JKR's childs book was used as a focus in childrens art project.

TRA went on to blame her for this action as she made the decision to not comment at the time and only focused on the tweets with the childrens art.

You can even google about it.

I've already told the pp about that, response came there none.

Have you lost track of your own narrative?

FYI the original now deleted post was yours

You are very preachy, aren’t you?

Quick answer. You know that's an unfair question. If we rolled out policy based on the answer to that question, men wouldn't be allowed out the house, anywhere.

You also can't base policy around one study (which it looks like most of the subsequent articles and claims are based on?) that was carried out by a small group of university researchers who were then laid off for their supposed bias. It could be they're onto something, but anyway looks like more research is needed clarifying claims on both sides.

I'm not convinced me or my kids are in danger from transwomen and that focusing in on this minority is distracting us from much bigger and prevalent dangers i.e. DV which is as you know a much bigger killer of women and children in the UK.

Genuinely stranger danger is an over stated threat to women - 5% of murders of women and 7% of rapes were committed by strangers compared to the rest by for the most part family or our own partners. If we went off statistics, basically we should never live with a man 🤷🏻‍♀️

And patronising

I have a lot of sympathy for your friend.

My interest in toilet design, especially in schools, is that I helped save a life because I saw a young woman had collapsed inside the cubicle and had stopped breathing (she’d choked on vomit - probably alcohol related as this incident was at a nightclub). It was because her blue hand was on the floor of her cubicle and I could see through to it because of the door gap.

Years later I was only a few feet away from a previously healthy child in a similar condition (through a medical emergency) and I had no idea because the door separating us was full height. So the result was different. And it was horrendous for everyone.

The door gaps in toilets in new schools have gone down to 5mm.

So I started campaigning because I don’t want anyone to go through what I did. For example, there are no door gaps specified in any of the toilets listed in Document T for public toilets. The unisex designs do specify no gaps - full floor to ceiling privacy. There are more toilets becoming unisex. The government did ask a company to look at what was needed for toilet design for those with long term health conditions. They didn’t look at most long term health conditions in that report. They recommended full privacy based on transactivist preferences. I can give you their ‘evidence’.

This is where we have things in common. Because that report had a big focus on trans people. I wanted that report to be focused on safe design for people with long term health conditions (their remit) that they didn’t even mention!

I just want the safest toilets. And it appears that this is single sex cubicles with door gaps, off a single sex area. So women can keep each other safe from medical emergencies and prevent assaults and voyeurism.

Men should keep other men safe in their toilets too.

Also just because the cyber flashing featured transwomen does not mean they are the perpetrators. Just because they feature in porn does not mean the situation is their fantasy.

FWIW for the transwomen I have spoken to it is problematic that they are in their words fetishsized. In fact the transwoman I spoke to was holding off on dating until she had surgery because she felt she was attracting peverts who saw her only for sex. She told me she does not regard herself as a biological woman and has the utmost respect for biological women but that lots of closeted straight men fantasize about having sex with a pre op trans woman and she didn't like that. It sounds like the problem with the peversion is not not with transwomen but supposedly with cisgendered straight men.

She also said she was harassed in the women's toilets by a woman once for using them but didn't feel like she could use the men's safety. I've never met someone more thick skinned if I'm honest.