Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

I have no idea what I said wrong? I quoted @Grammarnut 's post saying I agreed (and a few sentences which I felt paraphrased what they'd said). Not sure of the reason for deletion.

"The monitors" are obviously watching!

You have fans op!

First time for everything!

I'm guessing she has seen this thread and made a video for her followers about it now.

Are you guessing or do you have any knowledge that she has done that?

It was a guess as to why mundane posts are now getting quickly reported and removed. High numbers or reports usually

I haven't seen anything like that but it could be limited to her followers now perhaps.

This gets me thinking: we all have lots of examples of how various women respond to "transwomen", from the allies and handmaidens to the TERFs etc. I have been on FWR for a long time and you get a good idea of a range of people's thoughts on here, of course. But nearly all the people here are women, apart from the few men pretending to be women of course, we all know them.

But how much do people know about how men respond to "transmen"? Are there equivalents of allies and of TERFs among men (TERMs maybe)? This lady appears to believe she may not be welcome in male spaces, is that the norm? What do men feel about women in their spaces pretending to be men? I'd be really interested to know.

Not quite the same but I had an awful situation where a woman was convinced that my female partner was a trans man and 'must be' transitioning-she repeated it several times, almost screaming it and 'You're not a woman! I don't believe you!' this was in my local pub and I was both embarrassed and annoyed-after shouting this several times and then saying that she 'must be' transitioning, I removed us both from the situation. My partner was masculine in appearance but very much female and no desire to be anything else.

She'd also had negative receptions in female loos-understandable but luckily as soon as she'd explained that she was a woman and they'd had a better look at her, usually fine.

An ex of mine before that, similar in terms of looks but not quite as masculine was once manhandled out of a loo by security. I guess a good thing overall albeit not great for that individual however they appeared more masculine than Frankie (minus the beard)!

Maybe has some bearing?

Personally, I think if faced with a transman in a female space I'd just be confused. As long as I knew what they were. As others have said upthread, unfortunately I don't think I'd want to be friends with a transman based on accounts I've seen online. Not saying I never would! But the way I feel currently.

Er no, Mumsnet is in fact well-populated by people who do not have children - a place of female homosociality is a rarity on the internet (the number of male posters is so small it effectively doesn’t alter the nature of the space). There are lots of women who post here because MN allowed discussion nowhere else would; branding it transphobic to discuss things like the harm caused by allowing male people to be imprisoned in women’s prisons.

Public posts on the internet invite public commentary. Posters being broadly unsympathetic on here is neither harrassment nor is it bullying. Brigading the TikTok page would be inappropriate; discussing information this individual has publicly disseminated in this thread is not.

As a point of information, individuals with autism &/or ADHD are neurodivergent, not neurodiverse. Humanity is neurodiverse - everyone has a unique way of processing information.

As other posters have said, yes, lots of us know people who identify as transgender. Knowing, liking, even loving said individuals does not mean uncritical acceptance of the entire group; just as is the same of any other group of people. I have lots of Muslim friends - didn’t make me (nor them!) on board with ISIL &/or uncritical of those involved in the murder of Samuel Paty. I’ve Protestant family members but abhor the Orange Order. Equally, I’m often fiercely critical of socio-cultural groups to which I belong myself.

You may be unbothered by the presence of male individuals in female spaces, but you cannot consent for other women. And no, it is nothing like segregation in the US/apartheid in South Africa for women not to want male people, however they may identify, in female spaces. Cubicles are indeed individual - but there are common spaces within public toilets where women have every right to still say “no” to the presence of male persons. Moreover, given the number of transwomen who post about listening to women urinating as a fetishistic behaviour & indeed masturbating in the women’s loos as a way of “claiming” the space it is absolutely everyone’s business that people are breaking the social contract thus. Clearly not all transwomen engage in behaviours like that; but the VERY basic principles behind sex-segregated facilities mean that male people cannot reasonably be included in female spaces. It is not because these males identify as women; it is because they are male. We do not allow disabled men or gay men into female spaces; even male children are not permitted in them from a fairly young age. Where there are actual rules in place - eg in changing facilities - rather than simply following the social contract, boys are usually expected to use the male facilities from around age 8. Allowing adult males into those same spaces male children are barred from because they “identify as” women is a logically incoherent nonsense - & women are perfectly entitled to point that out.

Indeed. However, I suppose there is a puzzling irony/hypocrisy in a woman trying to present as a man then huffing and puffing about seeking participation in female or ‘non binary’ (whatever the f that is pretending to be) events. Those who follow that sort of ideology even have the nerve to get cross at people who don’t believe in such anti scientific nonsense. At least flat earthers (to give them their due) don’t try to force others (or air traffic controllers) to say their ‘beliefs’ are real or valid.

It’s a doctrine of their faith/ideology that you are what you identify as. It’s a ‘kinda magic’. So, maybe it is a crisis of faith. They might not think they are completely magicked into a man after all.

I think the challenges are different for trans men - my DD considered herself one for several years. She and those like her chose not to use male spaces, preferring to avoid the lavs completely or opting to use the disabled facilities. My DD said this was because she had been challenged - at worst she looked/looks like a 14yo pre pubescent boy, but it is pretty fucking obv she’s a ‘girl’/young woman, so I have to say that I suspect that she FEARED being challenged because that is what the activist mob have said would happen. Interestingly she has never felt ‘safe’ to use the men’s loos. Why not? Because on at least a subconscious level she KNOWS she doesn’t/didn’t pass and that she is vulnerable in exclusively male spaces.

So, trans men know they are more physically vulnerable - they cannot hold their own against a homophobic drunken kicking in a pub on a Friday night and they absolutely couldn’t prevent a sexual assault. So they avoid - they don’t use the loos, they leave early or they go with members of their tribe to the disabled loo. I know for a fact that my DD was never befriended by a male ally in ‘Spoons. I know for a fact that the young gay males of her acquaintance at school/college were, well, quite nasty and protective of their identities and special status so - sadly - were so far from being allies as to lead the charge on a matter of bullying and victimisation. It’s doubly, or triply tragic that these troubled young women instead of finding support and belonging simply back themselves into a corner where they become more vulnerable.

Just my opinion, obviously, based on limited experience of my child and some of her peers in my town. It may be dfferent for others, elsewhere.

Mr Menno has voiced irritation at women turning up in places he had gone to in order to be with other gay men, and there was thread in the last few months which described an upset and indignant young transman who had gone to a party being held by and for young gay men who found they were interested in each other, and male. She had obviously really wanted to be with other lesbian female fantasists.

Women are not support bipeds, but neither are gay men.

As a cis woman, I have never cared who else is using the bathroom as the women's has cubicles. What is going on behind the closed door isn't my business, or yours.

It obviously matters to transwomen. If it didn't, they'd use the men's. In fact, it obviously matters to any woman who says this which makes me doubt how much real conviction many of them have - the men's toilets have cubicles too but they still only use the women's. It's no more than a (non)virtue-signal imo.

Indeed. As a ND person who struggled with very painful heavy periods (and leakage) and now, after a very large baby and menopause, with urinary incontinence I absolutely do not want to find men in the ladies bathroom. My NG kicks into overdrive if I feel vulnerable or stressed.

It’s embarrassing enough when a woman sees you trying to dry your skirt or trousers under the hand dryer after rinsing the crutch in the sink, but at least you are greeted with discretion and empathy. But to have to do so while a male who ‘feels’ he is a woman looks on and gets his jollies watching you in the utterly humiliating and vulnerable position is unconscionable. Men don’t have leaking bladders, menstrual leaks, engorged/infected leaking breasts. So for them the loo is about evacuation and elimination of waste products and, perhaps, a bit of grooming.

Gay men are very protective of their spaces. There's a thing where some women prefer to hang out in gay bars because it's safer. Gay men don't like that at all. It's their space and it's not a substitute for women not feeling safe elsewhere. (Now, if only gay men could take that leap of imagination and apply the same logic to women's toilets...)

Anecdotally, they're not too fond of young women popping up pretending to be gay men and looking to hook up. Gay men, I don't believe I have to say this, are really into cocks and not at all interested in sexual partners who don't have them. The activist class may say TMAM, but any gay man in a hookup situation who encounters a transman will think - even if he's too polite to say it - this is a lesbian who should find other lesbians to hang out with.

I have never heard of a transman trying to insert herself into a straight male space. Funny that. If they did... well, not all straight men are into traditionally feminine women, lots of them love tomboyish women, but I imagine a straight man confronted with an obviously female person who insists she's a man, would probably just be confused and think this person is far too high maintenance to be around.

I feel sorry for them. They're voluntarily confining themselves to a tiny subculture and can't find a space in the world outside that subculture.

I feel sorry for them. They're voluntarily confining themselves to a tiny subculture and can't find a space in the world outside that subculture.

I agree, for both transmen and transwomen. They "other" themselves by rejecting their own sex. They want to be part of the opposite sex groups, who will never entirely accept them. They can't go back to their own groups, who will never entirely accept them either. One or other group may accept trans people in some single-sex circumstances, but not iin every situation. A transman wants to join a woman's walking group, and they think, "Why are you here? You have rejected women, you do not consider yourself a woman. You are insulting us." A transman wants to join a man's walking group and they think, "Why are you here? You are not a man. You can't understand us, we have nothing in common." The obvious answer is to join a mixed walking group (plenty of those) or a trans walking group (probably rare); single-sex situations no longer work for this person.

Ego-focussed bores discover that other people, with lives of their own, find them dull company. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah It's NOT FAIR!

I don’t think us real women can have it both ways.
if we don’t want trans women in our toilets (we don’t/I don’t) because they are men, then we can’t refuse to have trans men (aka women) in the women’s toilets, no matter how much an individual transman might look like a man.

The trouble is, surgery and medication are improving and sometimes it’s hard to tell.

It all seems like a real life 'cutted up pear'. MNetters who have been around a long time will get that reference. 😄

@KnickerlessParsons , I agree with you that transmen belong in the women's facilities.

I'm not convinced they're that hard to recognise. I suppose there are naturally wide-shouldered, narrow-hipped, large-handed, big-skulled, tall, etc women who transition, but most of them are short and sloped-shouldered with very obviously female hips. Very obviously female hips. Very. The beards and haircuts are a minor distraction.

IF we could be confident that people in single sex spaces were actually the right sex for that space, in theory, it shouldn’t matter what they look like, except……..

the basis for many female only spaces is VAWG. On this front, woman are safer in their own spaces but may not feel safer when women who look like males use them. Furthermore, they may not actually be safer if women who look like men, through psychological or medical means, become more dangerous.

A lot has been posted on this board about TW retaining male pattern behaviour. Do we know if TM behaviour patterns have been shown to remain the same? Testosterone is a powerful hormone/drug

It is, and aggressive young people with no empathy can be dangerous, witness Cambodia and the Cultural revolution in China (though youngsters with female bodies face dangers of their own) but unpleasant women in loos has been something we've lived with. I find the crickets children and their ilk scary, but suspect I could fight them off long enough to escape a confined space. Hope I could, anyway.

At worst, they aren't likely to be masturbating, filming and recording indecent material, or indulging in the sort of voyeurism/exhibitionism/frottage that often escalates to assault and rape.

Lots of women have a theory that transmen pass better, but I don't believe that. The beards do all the heavy lifting.

I have known literally one transwoman who passed - not perfectly, but so that you wouldn't notice if you weren't paying close attention. With all the others, it jumps out a mile away. It's much the same for transmen.

Lord Winston has mentioned that one of the things that got him interested in the topic was his concern that transitioners have a completely unrealistic sense of what hormones and surgery can do to make them look like the desired sex.

And for some reason, the people who transition tend not to be the ones who were a bit androgynous to begin with. It's usually big hairy blokes or petite women.