Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

[AnnListersBlister]

This has gone quite mad over social media.

I am not sure what to think of it other than, if transwomen are women then transmen are men? Why would this person want to be there?

And this is a 'female and non-binary space' -the 'non-binary' makes it ambiguous? But from the reactions the transman got, wasn't welcome, shunned, seems primarily female, a 'safe space'?

I am sorry that I cannot upload the file, only the TikTok link.

www.tiktok.com/@papasmurf9059/video/7474605736216087830?_t=ZN-8uBP9BayAg2&_r=1

Have they been made to feel excluded or have they chosen to exclude themselves?

Either way, they should be just as welcome as any other female person. No more, no less.

Either way, if a woman is obviously presenting as male & wants to be accepted into a women’s group, she needs to spell that out.

Some of the women in that group might have clocked Frankie but worried that if they assumed Frankie wanted to join them, they might be accused of misgendering.

IMO many have been made to feel excluded and subsequently become trans identified and excluded themselves.

Some of the women in that group might have clocked Frankie but worried that if they assumed Frankie wanted to join them, they might be accused of misgendering.

Good point.

By the age of 25, everyone, even the most popular, has had a few episodes of being excluded. Probably many episodes. And didn't react by adopting a long-term alternate identity. Even if they weren't lucky enough to have been taught in childhood (at home or at school) that the only thing to do after exclusion or rejection is just to go on, they know that by early adulthood.

If someone tech-savvy and self-promoting doesn't demonstrate their ability to interact with others by the age of 39 (potential grandparent age, as I said earlier) that is because they have chosen to be the Special Precious One.

Special Precious Ones are a monumental p i t a.

It is different, of course, for someone suffering from dementia, when childhood habits are reasserting themselves. But not for an active adult able to look after their own interests.

frankly, one should not expect consistency in the thought-processes of the mentally ill.

Everyone has experienced bullying, mistreatment, exclusion etc. The difference is in the degree and severity. Look at the number of kids at the Tavistock coming from backgrounds of growing up in care, suffering sexual abuse, having a parent who is a sex offender etc. Trans-identified females are a particularly vulnerable group on average who have experienced many adverse experiences and forms of exclusion. Let's not compound that by further excluding them when they are brave enough to reach out and try to reconnect with who they really are. Detransition and healthier ways to cope with her mental illness does not develop overnight.

I understand your point about vulnerability and the grooming of young people to believe their sex is wrong. And have massive sympathy for the teenagers / young people caught up in this. But yet again it's placing women in the position of having to be support humans. Not just for the men demanding access to women's undressed bodies for their own validation or excitement but now for the women who have so disliked being a woman they claim to be men.
I suspect if her social media was probed there'd be a series of "anti women / anti terf" sentiments exposed. Yet women are now expected to uncritically welcome her in a woman's walking group. If she really wanted to be in a woman only group I doubt she'd have posted something so critical about them - putting them in danger of attack from the trans extremists who populate on line looking for women to harass for wrong think.

Maybe it's because I'm weary of all this but the constant demands that women must tap into our female socialisation and be "mummy" to everyone - regardless of whether people have shown care and respect towards women?

I'm not sure I've much energy left.

Every word of this

I'm busy currently, will read recent replies again later but I did come across a post by Frankie while looking to find something else mentioned in this thread where she'd said something such as 'some women have dicks', in response to a post by a gay woman. I also naively thought 'it'd be helpful for Frankie & others in similar positions to read this thread (not that I'd ever orchestrate it, just a passing thought)& then I caught myself and realised how strong their level of denial would be if they did.

I don't understand what this means.

Literally nobody would have said they weren't women until they said they weren't women themselves. The whole schtick around "inclusive language" is about using alternative language to refer to male people and female people who have decided that the words "men" and "women" don't include them and so we must change the language we use to refer to male people and female people so that they can be included in the thing that only they think they are not included in.

If you mean they have found it difficult to make friends, well, yes, that's the case for a lot of people but pretending that you're the opposite sex isn't the answer.

What I mean is that many of them have had experiences of exclusion that contribute to their misperception that they are somehow not women. If someone is returning to reality and seeking out the appropriate single sex space I don't think it is helpful to hold their mental illness and confusion over them. Better to welcome them and hope the healing can continue.

That's most unfortunate and homophobic but I think it takes time to deprogramme from what is really like a cult. I hope this is a first step towards doing so.

I absolutely agree that they should be welcomed and included. A trans man specifically seeking out female company may well be on the first step towards detransitioning, if this is their dawning realisation that by rejecting womanhood they have lost something of value.

But we are all only human, and if you expect to be included by a group of people you don't yet know, it is really on you to make the first move by introducing yourself. They aren't mind readers.

This conversation has reminded me of a former acquaintance of mine who was best man at a friend's wedding. He was painfully shy and doing the best man speech was clearly one of the hardest things he had ever had to do, which he openly admitted, but he said that when he was the shy new kid at school the groom was the only kid who actually went up to him, started talking to him and invited him to come and join the group. Which shows that the kind of people who go out of their way to include others are pretty rare.

Interestingly, that person (the best man) is now a trans woman.

I agree with you to some degree, and I don't think that the women should have to tolerate regressive views, misogyny, homophobia etc from a trans-identified female anymore than any other female should be allowed to spew such vitriol without accountability.

But as someone with experience trying to support trans-identified females who need support some of the attitudes here that because someone has declared themselves a man that should be accepted as truth seem to go entirely against the principles of GC activism, and only for the sake of spiting a particularly vulnerable group of mentally unwell people.

Surely the entire point should be to lovingly but firmly deny the delusions of gender confused people and encourage them to value truth and fact? And if that is too much work then fine don't get involved, but don't actively contribute to their illness but going 'well you're right you are a man so don't come here asking for support over issues affecting you because you are a female'.

I understand that. My comment was aimed at those claiming that a transman shouldn't seek out female space because they have declared themselves a man.

Selfishly I realise but I do not want to watch the video again (and probably can't now the privacy settings have been increased) but from when I did watch, I think Frankie may have assumed that the person she'd met the night before would've told people at the group that she was coming along and to look out for her (or in her mind, look out for him/them!), so when she turned up felt like they all definitely KNEW she was coming.

Therefore it looked like a deliberate shunning?

I wouldn't have-you probably wouldn't have made this assumption? I am not sure that makes a difference here-perhaps due to MH issues and/or learning disabilities including ASD it was less so 'I'm so special and important' and more so 'They know I was coming of course they do! Therefore they're deliberately not being welcoming to me!'?

The person she met the night before may not know her well and was thinking 'Yeh of course you can go along' (which she probably could) and assuming she'd just turn up and say 'Hey I'm Frankie, coming along today- I met X last night and he told me about this group!' like a 'normal' person would, not realising it wouldn't go that way because Frankie wouldn't have thought to do that.

I am trying to put myself in that person's shoes now! Maybe if I had've known more what Frankie was like I might've said 'Just make sure you let them know when you get there that you've seen me and I've said to go along' or I might've even msgd someone in the group to look out for her. But they didn't' think that was necessary or even considered it being any different to 'normal' -and now I am back onto the thought process of how far do we go to accommodate someone with these issues? How much do we 'baby' them and make them our responsibility?

I hope so too.

I honestly don't think I'd have 'bitten' if someone said that to me. It's not great, but I am often just tired of the doctrine of that type of argument. I'm a gay female, I don't do 'dick', I don't care if the person it is attached to now has a soft voice and long hair. I'd be terrified if I somehow inadvertently dated a transwoman. Thankfully it hasn't ever happened and for various reasons it would be very unlikely.

Thing is, I grew up with a person with ASD who expected others to be mind-readers, and expected any family member to act as interpreter. I would have hoped that at some stage on the journey to middle age all the medics and therapists Frankie must have seen (mustn't she? surely therapy is the first requirement of someone suffering from neurodiversity-induced solipsism?) would have taught her a few essential coping strategies and explained that we are not mind-readers. I remember 'my one' wailing 'I hate having to second-guess people all the time' and realising that that is what all the rest of us do, all the time, not for fun but because that's how life works.

The only time 'my one' got taken to a doctor because of the ASD symptoms was in the 1930s, a few years before professor Asperger first described his 'little professors', so no help was available, but in the 21st century it should be.

I'm a lesbian too and feel exactly the same. I'm just aware also of how deep the brainwashing is. Most of these young women are lesbians too and yet espouse horribly homophobic sentiments that impact on themselves, just as they may hold misogynistic views despite being women.

It is very sad and I don't hold that other people have to tolerate those views just because the individual is vulnerable and manipulated. But at the same time I can't agree with some of the sentiments here implying that trans-identified females have made their choices and are no longer welcome in female spaces. How else is one to come back from something like this, and how do such sentiments speak to those who are detransitioning?

Honestly even if I clocked someone as a trans man standing around near a female hobby group, my assumption would be that person had nothing to do with the group. Because my assumption is, that person is trying to live as a man and likely wants to be undercover about it.

I have recently had a person involved in a hobby group I belong to who I guess is a trans man - it's a large enough group that it's easy not to interact with others who are involved at other times. But this person is clearly absolutely a female person, taking testosterone, with a full beard. But still using a very female name.

I described thiss person to one of my kids recently, who was attending with me that day, as "the woman with the beard" which I wouldn't have said to anyone else, but it was the only obvious way to describe the person who my son didn't know the name of - and was told by said son that I was very terrible. I pointed out this person used a female name and suggested was therefore not trying to appear male, but according to him, that was a wrong and I am awful.

I am still unsure what this person is identifying as, or would want to be called, but honestly I am just avoiding interacting because I would rather not get it wrong which seems highly likely no matter what .

People may have deep trauma or whatever that is contributing to their actions but they creating a minefield others don't want to walk across.

Some psychological needs just are met by constant disappointment, distress and anger with those failing to understand or meet needs properly. Many public bodies have a small number of people with multiple complaints in process at one time whose needs are being met by the emotion, and by the actions from the emotion. Courts have the same; I'm sure many here can think of a few cases to illustrate. I remember a manager years ago explaining 'whatever you do, you have to accept you will never be able to make this person happy'. It isn't resolution that meets the needs.

However vulnerable someone may be, it's not the birth duty of women to put any stranger's needs and interests above their own and to provide for them. The half subconscious expectation that they have this moral duty and that it's not really all right for a woman to say 'I don't want to and choose not to, my own feelings about this matter too', is, to use a word I detest, 'problematic'. In a number of ways.

Can you imagine reading a thread from a TQ+ community worrying to each other about whether they had been sufficiently welcoming, nurturing and dutiful to a woman who wandered in their midst with no clear agenda? What is this one way only expectation and why would it be ok?

I would maintain a healthy wariness of the bearded, juiced-up ones - 'roid rage is a real thing. I would also argue that transmen can pass far more easily than transwomen, while they can't do anything about height and hand size obviously, things like hips/waist aren't noticeable when you've packed on an extra 20kg of muscle, and the Adam's apple grows noticeably under testosterone treatment.

Having been in a relationship with someone who had ASD, I recognise this. I am sorry you experienced it. From what I've seen, any therapy Frankie may have had hasn'thad much affect. Therapy can only really work if you meet the therapist half way and are susceptible to and happy for change. Frankie seems (from this interaction) to want the world to change for her (please note I am just saying that as it seems factual, rather than not taking into account that MH issues/ASD may make that very difficult to alter).