Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
eatfigs · 12/02/2025 18:55

A wide range of views expressed on the UK Doctors Reddit. Pleased to see some eloquent feminist arguments being made in there.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 18:57

NotAComputerPerson · 12/02/2025 18:13

Wasn’t that the key point in the ERCC tribunal? That there was no way she could have framed the question asked on behalf of the service user without being accused of inappropriate behaviour?

And I think that's the crux of it

Wanting to punish wrong think and control behaviour preemptively to use women for validation, even if it's against their will.

All the language tomfoolery is, is a means to try and achieve that goal.

The 'threat' and 'harassment' is at best complete paranoia. At worse it's coercive and prejudice.

Merrymouse · 12/02/2025 19:01

TeiTetua · 12/02/2025 18:47

It's insidious, the way that the Upton side has tried to use language (mostly without success, fortunately) to advance their case. "Cis" to refer to actual women, as though "trans" is equally valid. Attempting to make the judge tell Sandie Peggie to refer to Dr Upton as "she/her", as if that very contentious issue has already been decided.

Dr Upton has definitely had the chance to stand up in court and say "I am a woman" and Sandie Peggie has been able to say "No you're not". What I'd like to hear now is someone saying on behalf of the NHS board "Our policy is that Dr Upton is right in this matter and Sandie Peggie is wrong". Which they've obviously been trying to enforce by their actions, but will any individual actually take responsibility for it in open court, with a highly competent barrister ready to take them apart? That won't be a role that anyone will want to take on.

I don't see how they can. I would guess that a minorityof NHS Fife are full on TWAW, but that proceedings have got this far because a majority thought they were protecting their jobs by taking the line of least resistance. Agreeing with Upton that "nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex" would be a very interesting claim from a health board.

Dr Upton doesn't have a GRC, so the most they can go with is 'misgendering is unkind'.

nebulousMoose · 12/02/2025 19:02

Cerah · 12/02/2025 17:15

I've been following this case and this whole thing is bonkers. A woman tells a man he shouldn't be using the women's changing rooms and she is the one who is suspended.

Idgaf if she asked him about his chromosomes. She was absolutely right to tell him he shouldn't be in there. While I know how we have got into this situation, I still can't believe we are here. This poor woman has to publicly detail previous trauma and her menstrual cycle to defend saying what she had every right to say, while this man sat there smugly saying he's a biological female and played the victim.

I've always thought this stuff was rubbish since uni. Unfortunately not a lot of my friends agree and have shut me down whenever I've mentioned it. I might have to continue lurking on Mumsnet a to feel sane.

Edited

Completely agree with your post @Cerah. I'm glad that lurking on Mumsnet helps you to feel sane.

I think the stark differences in status make Sandie Peggie's courage in bringing this action even more remarkable.

Doctors are more important than nurses, younger people are more relevant than older people - Upton is a young doctor. Peggie is a middle aged nurse.

Upton is a man, Peggie is a woman. Not only is Peggie a woman, she is peri-menopausal. Her body is changing, her periods are likely to be irregular, unpredictable, very heavy when they come, and difficult to manage in a practical way, especially at work.

Upton states that he is a woman. He will never have periods, he cannot bear children, he will never go through the menopause. But he still maintains that he IS a woman.

Upton is a young, not yet 30-year-old, male in the prime of life. He has the high status of a practising medical doctor. He is accustomed to deference, by virtue of his sex and his status. So when he claims he IS a woman, he's not claiming the right to the automatic lower and more subservient status that women have. He wants to keep his male status and continue to order women about and have them agree with everything he says.

Peggie is a middle-aged, 50-year-old, woman in perimenopause. Her status is lower than Upton's, lower than any male person, but especially lower than Upton's, because of the hierarchy within the NHS, and because of her age, as women's value as perceived by our sexist, ageist society, diminishes with age. She's likely to have caring responsibilities for both younger and older members of her family at this stage of her life, and her financial status is certain to be lower than Upton's, too.

So even if it were true that it's possible to change sex, to become "the woman you always knew you were", which it isn't, and never can be - even if it were possible, the "woman" Upton claims to be is never going to be an ordinary woman. Not an invisible, undervalued, overworked, dismissed, menopausal woman with a complex and tangible relationship with her own sexed body. Not a real woman.

Sandie Peggie is marvellous, courageous and brilliant. It is searing to have to go to Court to argue for your rights. It is torturous having to go over the story again and again, to be undermined, disbelieved, punished and controlled, and to have to listen to all the lies and evasions. But it's necessary, and good, and powerful, that she is doing so.

delvan · 12/02/2025 19:07

For my sins, I had to look up WORIADS. I knew what the last four letters stood for but couldn't for the life of me remember the first three. 😟

Anyway as you do, I googled it, and this is one of the links that came up. It might be of interest to anyone who wants to check previous tribunals in a similar vein (and more), and it also explains WORIADS. Win Win!

Jo Phoenix is one of the authors, of OU fame where she won her case. TBH I thought when I saw that it was produced by the University (of Reading) that it would be a captured document. But it appears not, although I haven't read the entire thing, I just skimmed it so far for the WORIADS.

centaur.reading.ac.uk/118472/8/Dont%20Get%20Caught%20Out%20final%20%28002%29.pdf

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 19:08

NotAComputerPerson · 12/02/2025 18:13

Wasn’t that the key point in the ERCC tribunal? That there was no way she could have framed the question asked on behalf of the service user without being accused of inappropriate behaviour?

I see a lot of parallels with that case.

It's the top down enforcement and individuals who have power beyond their remit and where they influence should extend. As well as crap useless management/trustees who are totally unprepared to challenge absurdities despite having clear lines of responsibility in that area to protect staff and clients from ideological nonsense over doing the actual job.

I would be so pleased if this judge pulls up Upton in the ruling over the duplicity of language and language always being tipped in favour of Upton's beliefs.

I hope the judge is happy in letting Upton do all the hard work single handedly.

NotAComputerPerson · 12/02/2025 19:08

Spot on @nebulousMoose

And that’s why Jane Russell deployed the Promising Young Man card of getting Upton to talk about the career implications of being found guilty of harassment by the tribunal in his final moments in the witness box.

Signalbox · 12/02/2025 19:09

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 16:12

Total is flying up.

Sorry if this has been covered already but does anyone know if this is a genuine crowdfund or is there a risk it’s a scam?

ChowMoWan · 12/02/2025 19:10

eatfigs · 12/02/2025 18:55

A wide range of views expressed on the UK Doctors Reddit. Pleased to see some eloquent feminist arguments being made in there.

Just had a look at this and I’m shocked how many of those doctors think he should not have to disclose his sex, and that it should be fine for him to treat women who want single sex care if they don’t clock he’s a man. At least one doctor thinks women should not be treated at all if they have a sex preference!

NotAComputerPerson · 12/02/2025 19:13

ChowMoWan · 12/02/2025 19:10

Just had a look at this and I’m shocked how many of those doctors think he should not have to disclose his sex, and that it should be fine for him to treat women who want single sex care if they don’t clock he’s a man. At least one doctor thinks women should not be treated at all if they have a sex preference!

“At least one doctor thinks women should not be treated at all if they have a sex preference!”

Gynaecologist or obstetrician by any chance?

NebulousHog · 12/02/2025 19:14

Is there a visual timeline anywhere, ideally with colour coding for the differing versions of who is saying what? Or does anyone know anyone who is making one that will be public?

I may attempt. may if someone isn't already on this - I keep getting confused.

TheHereticalOne · 12/02/2025 19:14

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:07

From earlier

JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?
DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

Let us reflect on this tiny exchange as its really quite the reveal, isn't it now?

Upton didn't want ANY woman organising and collectively stating that the presence of a males in the women's changing room was appropriate and they felt harassed and intimitated by it. Sandie just happened to be the one not having any of it, on this particular occasion. And that just wouldn't wash for Dr Upton. He wanted to ensure she was unable to ask too many inconvient questions or check on how other women were also feeling. It was preemptive and preventive. Some might call this 'controlling'.

Instead Upton wants now, to frame women objecting as propagating 'untrue allegations' rather than simply having a problem with feeling like this was potentially vouyerism and an infringment on their privacy and dignity. Because Upton isn't the same sex and one woman wanted same sex facilities to prevent, errrrr any potential for there to be any vouyerism or infringements on her privacy and dignity.

He sought to isolate Sandy from being able to speak to colleagues about how this made her feel vulnerable and instead sort to frame her speaking with other females as 'harassment'. Isolating someone, is hmm, somewhat 'controlling'.

Remember this theorectically includes preventing Sandie being able to talk to, say you or me - we are all women who might agree with Sandie and might wish to talk to about how this makes US feel. God forbid, one woman might agree with her and this might form a consensus amongst other women. Women talking about their own feelings must be verboten. This is about shutting up ALL women who have a concept of feeling uncomfortable and have the sheer audicity to want privacy and dignity at this point.

So yeah, I wanted to point out, how obviously spectatularly well this intention to preemptively stop Sandie from talking to other women is working out for Upton at this stage in preceedings.

We are now what, well over 14,000 posts on MN on this plan, as well as huge amount on other parts of social media and numerous articles in the national press?

Not only this, but Upton has successfully and clearly managed to demonstrate, in the space of those two sentences alone ((never mind all the other comments Upton's made). :

1 Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

2 Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

3 Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

4 Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

  1. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

  2. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.

  3. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I must applaud the work of Dr Upton in showing the absoluetely incredible power of the Streisand Effect in its full glory and being able to condense those complex sentiments into such a concise format. It really is quite the achievement. Dr Upton's control and command of the English language is quite the spectacle to behold.

Bravo to all and every woman, who keeps finding her own voice and daring to talk to others and centring women's feelings rather than just pandering to those of males and suppressing our own concerns.

How very dare we.

Keep talking: Dr Upton doesn't like women organising and talking amongst themselves.

Edited

DU: "Many of my colleagues agree that i am a woman."

Also DU: I was concerned that my colleagues would agree with Goodie Peggie that I am a man.

Okie dokie.

DU: "I did not tell my supervisor that Goodie Peggie was a bigot".

Also DU: "Other than Goodie Peggie's bigoted opinions I have no problem with her being at work".

Ho hum.

OvaHere · 12/02/2025 19:15

ChowMoWan · 12/02/2025 19:10

Just had a look at this and I’m shocked how many of those doctors think he should not have to disclose his sex, and that it should be fine for him to treat women who want single sex care if they don’t clock he’s a man. At least one doctor thinks women should not be treated at all if they have a sex preference!

Are they definitely all doctors? You can pretend to be anyone on the internet or at Fife hospital.

eatfigs · 12/02/2025 19:16
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
BiologicallyNebulous · 12/02/2025 19:16

Merrymouse · 12/02/2025 19:01

I don't see how they can. I would guess that a minorityof NHS Fife are full on TWAW, but that proceedings have got this far because a majority thought they were protecting their jobs by taking the line of least resistance. Agreeing with Upton that "nobody can accurately or usefully define biological sex" would be a very interesting claim from a health board.

Dr Upton doesn't have a GRC, so the most they can go with is 'misgendering is unkind'.

Edited

I don’t know about Scotland but the NHS in England is full on TWAW.

Our Trust’s policy states that staff and patients are treated according to their preferred ‘gender identity’.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 19:17

Signalbox · 12/02/2025 19:09

Sorry if this has been covered already but does anyone know if this is a genuine crowdfund or is there a risk it’s a scam?

It's legit.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
ChowMoWan · 12/02/2025 19:19

OvaHere · 12/02/2025 19:15

Are they definitely all doctors? You can pretend to be anyone on the internet or at Fife hospital.

That’s what I’m hoping - that they’re just Reandoms identifying as doctors - because otherwise…

Lunde · 12/02/2025 19:20

DU's tendency to use contradictory statements was also at the forefront today

  • SP was the only person who complained because everyone else was supportive
  • DU forced to make official complaint - fears that SP would rally the troops

So which was it?

FannyCann · 12/02/2025 19:20

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 12/02/2025 17:58

The GMC has a range of sanction options, including :

Agree undertakings offered by the doctor
What are undertakings?
71 Undertakings are restrictions on a doctor’s
practice or behaviour agreed between the
doctor and the GMC. They may include, for
example, a restriction to NHS posts or no
longer carrying out a particular procedure,
or commit the doctor to undergo medical
supervision or retraining.
(page 23)

I would actually prefer he had to undergo retraining than other options.
I like the idea of him having to learn some biology, write out 5000 times "There are only two sexes, male and female, and you need one of each to make a baby" and a few other elementary lessons. 😉

www.mpts-uk.org/-/media/mpts-documents/07_-dc4198-sanctions-guidance-5-february-2024_pdf-104619554.pdf

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 19:21

This is Gillian Philip's Twitter link re Judge Kemp, who is the judge in this tribunal and was also the judge in hers.

https://x.com/Gillian_Philip/status/1885454043297755204

JasmineAllen · 12/02/2025 19:22

eatfigs · 12/02/2025 18:55

A wide range of views expressed on the UK Doctors Reddit. Pleased to see some eloquent feminist arguments being made in there.

There's also a worryingly large number of drs who don't appear to believe in patient centric care, informed consent or who have a good grasp of the difference between gender (feelings) and sex (fact).

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 19:24

TheHereticalOne · 12/02/2025 19:14

DU: "Many of my colleagues agree that i am a woman."

Also DU: I was concerned that my colleagues would agree with Goodie Peggie that I am a man.

Okie dokie.

DU: "I did not tell my supervisor that Goodie Peggie was a bigot".

Also DU: "Other than Goodie Peggie's bigoted opinions I have no problem with her being at work".

Ho hum.

Well given Im already of the opinion that most doctors are not to be trust and have egos the size of large planets. Q

I have to say I would be going through Upton's testimony with a fine tooth comb to find all the totally contradictory, illogical stuff and unscientific stuff to highlight this was a doctor in a high pressure environment, used to dealing with abuse in an assertive manner with daily safeguarding responsibility who was behaving in a totally unscientific, unprofessional manner, who spent more time recording the whereabouts of a colleague than reporting safety issues and didn't understand what biology was for the summing up.

Unfortunately, the summing up will need to be short so I doubt NC will have the time to cover all the examples of abject lunacy.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 12/02/2025 19:24

KS is a more senior Dr than DU. So if he had raised the patient safety issue with her earlier she would have been duty bound to report it but didn’t. That would raise conduct issues for her.

She is not going to jeopardise her career to save his. She is already at risk if she did send an inflammatory email which is found to be harassment.

I am struggling to see how JR could represent her and DU if she is added as a respondent.

Merrymouse · 12/02/2025 19:25

BiologicallyNebulous · 12/02/2025 19:16

I don’t know about Scotland but the NHS in England is full on TWAW.

Our Trust’s policy states that staff and patients are treated according to their preferred ‘gender identity’.

That is 'being kind' and a bit sexist and going with the status quo. (Arguably the NHS has been 'kind' but a bit sexist for decades). However, the wind is changing direction. To say that Dr Upton is actually male would be quite a scientific claim. The headlines and questions in parliament would be very interesting.

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 19:27

I've just realised that this exchange where DrU's admitted that he escalated his concerns (at least partly) because of his fantasies of what Sandie might do - this wasn't NC, it was JR "just covering a few things"!

To me it reads that DrU's reported concerns were not always based on reality. I can only assume that he and JR thought it would play well in showing how hostile the world seems to TW??

DUThat was about when she said to me, I understand you're going through some process. B4 that she'd said re intimidated etc.
JR: So this is just before mention of chromosomes
DU: Yes
JR: p736. This is your email to BMA 26/12. 2 pages in you were taken to p beginning "v upset with recent escalation", it was suggested you were trying to have C sacked (even tho word not used).
JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?
DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.