NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

NC This is notes of that transcription after mtg. Not absolutely accurate, cos you and AG had excluded material you two didn't think was relevant to IX.

That's how 'accuracy' works, DrU!

I also really, really hope that in that time the court will have no excuse but to fix/prepare their technology to allow open justice... Fingers crossed,

Regardless of anything else, I really don't think someone with such significant memory problems should be practising as a doctor. If he forgets something important people could die, and apparently he doesn't even have the skills to look up information he has forgotten. His delusions about sex and gender and the duty of women to let him watch them undress aside, he really, really is coming across as an incompetent and unsafe practitioner.

He may not be 'in the habit of" but did he do it this time? It's another example of his condescending tone towards a KC (who happens to be a woman ...).

NC if anything why original notes not in bundle.

DU Not responsible for bundle

NC R original production inc exchange AG/you asking to review notes and return

DU You respond next day. Agree accurate note of IX mtg

The financial hit isn't the only cost. The senior management of NHS Fife will be very attached to their jobs and, more importantly, their egos. Someone high up the chain will have to be scape-goated for this mess, so they'll all be scrambling now to make sure it's not them.

NC we see an anodyne rerun of please approve minutes

DU y

NC no hint in AG email are you happy now we've made changes. It's as if she asking you for first time.

DU That's what's being asked. I've said they are accurate.

Remember the chap from Maya Forstater's tribunal, who said he'd gone down that route because he wanted to avoid reputational damage to the company - and then Ben Cooper saying, with a gentle smile, "It would be unkind to ask how that's working out for you..." ?😂

NC This exchange inc in bundle. No sign until we pressed of the exercise of you/AG rewriting minutes. Is it fair for tribunal to conclude was concealing you were not happy in first place and they were changed.

DU. No. Accurate if not completely everything transcribed first.

Theodore is showing he isn’t easily flustered under pressure, he isn’t easily upset, and his comprehensive recall of information and detail can be set aside when it suits him.

This is really bad. Unless disclosure rules are different in tribunals than civil courts, my understanding is that you are required to disclose all documents- included draft versions..

NC Moving on to qs c your account of incidents at diff times. Five items on your charge sheet - or rather, account against SP, 3 x in CR, missing patient and resus incident.

DU Y. wouldn't call it a charge sheet.

In my (thankfully few) experiences of hospitals, the junior doctors have been extremely reliant on computer systems, which they simply must know how to navigate quickly and confidently in order to do their jobs at all. To hear this A & E doctor now try to identify as 'not a computer person' is cause for extreme concern - and that’s leaving aside the gigantic other causes for concern, obviously.

Didn't want to draw attention to the lack of a GRC - or what this could imply.

NC Yr email 26/12 to BMA. You mention all 5. Met with KS on 29/12 - did you discuss 2x patient incidents at that mtg

DU Don't recall. Unsurprised if we did. Would be normal for KS to have asked me if anything else going on as well as problems with colleague

If the second version is as accurate as the first, why did the first need to be altered? It’s just the version you prefer.

Agree. I know it's not the main point at stake here but imagine saying "I'm not a computer person" in front of your employer in a case as important as this!!

Yes, from everything I've read, where a number of people (including a couple of lawyers), have asserted this and no one has contradicted them, I believe that to be true. You do all know that SP is the one bringing this case against NHS Fife/ Upton, I assume? It's not them taking her to court, she's dragged them here so that everyone can see the insanity of the situation.

Her costs are being underwritten by someone unknown, presumably someone with funds who's looked at the case and the benefits to be gained from winning it and taken the risk of funding it. Though given all that NC and team have dug up, there doesn't seem to be any realistic risk of losing.

Haven't you realised yet, this man can do anything and his employer will bow to it?

NC You told last week that you looked at policies with KS and yr evidence in chief looks as though you/KS/etc looking at policy

DU Y Looking for guidance.

NC It would be misleading if you turned up at 29/12 equipped already with policies

DU I may have - emailed BMA on 26

Memory problems again.

To be all AIBU: could he have dementia??

😁

Whaaaaa?

The ONE time we're not attempting to listen through the dreadful sound quality and they say this? 🤣

(Sorry still 20 mins behind on the thread, slowly catching up!)

Yes we are all aware it her case.

Navigating hospital computer systems is a bane in the life of any junior doctor - because they get moved around and there are different systems. More senior doctors stay put and get used to the systems.

I would also like to know why he datixed the incident in the CR but didnt feel it necessary to datix on what are claimed to be (but clearly are not) serious patient safety issues.

I expect NHS Fife to throw their EDI person under the bus and say it was all based on their advice and EDI person will say was following hospital policy.

One thing you can be sure of is that no senior head will role.