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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 15:38

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
PlumbertimeInFife · 11/02/2025 23:42

If they thought it was a hate crime, did anyone report this "crime" to the police?

socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/02/2025 23:42

EauCaledonia · 11/02/2025 22:40

His legal fees are covered by NHS Fife. There's nothing snide in pointing out that Sandie Peggie is a working class woman and Upton, by his own admission, is a middle-class, privileged man. Disagree by all means and explain your thinking, but it's really not on to tell people their views aren't acceptable.

Edited

I just said I didn't agree for the reasons I gave. The OP for this had quite a long statement about wealth and privilege, not based on very much but about the 2 fundraisers ie one being treats and the other not. I've pointed out factually why there might be differences between them. The original comment was trying to draw a conclusion from no evidence. Hence snide.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/02/2025 23:47

MarieDeGournay · 11/02/2025 22:45

In fairness, socialdilemmawhattodo, neither is for legal fees, as both sides seem to have those covered.

Both are gestures of support to the participants.

In the case of SP, those gestures take the form of donations to the Scottish Society for Rheumatology in memory of SP's very recently-deceased father. Currently £10,925.

In the case of DrU, they take the form of donations for treats for DrU.

They do seem to emanate from two different mindsets.

Totally agree they are about support for the individual. Nothing to do with wealth, privilege, etc, from the original post I replied to. Hence my first reply comment.

Bannedontherun · 11/02/2025 23:47

socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/02/2025 23:33

Not mine. I feel it is important to call out fake accusations, such as privileged, wealthy etc, where there is no need for that.

i really have no idea what you mean by “not mine”.

There were no “accusations” it was, what is commonly known as a matter of opinion

Not snide as you put it.

Fine if you do not personally agree, but your “calling it out” is just a strange thing to say. It belies a belief that you think your opinion is the right one. And nobody else has a right to express otherwise.

You could have just passed it by.

But on a thread all about women’s oppression you chose to focus on another poster, in a personal fashion.

Is that all you have to offer on this thread?

RethinkingLife · 11/02/2025 23:51

PlumbertimeInFife · 11/02/2025 23:42

If they thought it was a hate crime, did anyone report this "crime" to the police?

When you think of the way that some people have been able to get Police Scotland to send people to England to investigate people accused of a NCHI, it's quite extraordinary that an alleged hate crime wasn't reported.

The whole thing baffles me. But I am assuming that such a bold statement in the minutes (assuming it is the incident and it would be a bit suprising if it's not) must have a lot of documentaton somewhere for everything that happened ahead of the document dated 15 Feb (grief, that's a year this Saturday).

HootyMcBoobs · 11/02/2025 23:51

WearyAuldWumman · 11/02/2025 23:41

Well, Willoughby is a real woman!

Way back in 2018, Ms Willoughby was screaming and demanding to be seen as a "real woman".
And here we are in 2025, and still absolutely nobody (sane) sees them as "real women".
Weird.

I wonder what went wrong for them..........

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 23:51

Pete the Plumber - Brian Blessed (although he is neither bald nor burly)

Ross Kemp

Lark1ane · 11/02/2025 23:55

Pete the Plumber - Brian Blessed (although he is neither bald nor burly)
Ross Kemp

Vinnie Jones
Or perhaps Eric Cantona ?

Night Wims

socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/02/2025 23:59

Bannedontherun · 11/02/2025 23:47

i really have no idea what you mean by “not mine”.

There were no “accusations” it was, what is commonly known as a matter of opinion

Not snide as you put it.

Fine if you do not personally agree, but your “calling it out” is just a strange thing to say. It belies a belief that you think your opinion is the right one. And nobody else has a right to express otherwise.

You could have just passed it by.

But on a thread all about women’s oppression you chose to focus on another poster, in a personal fashion.

Is that all you have to offer on this thread?

You are welcome to advance search my user name on this site. I name change periodically but haven't done for the last couple of years. You mostly find me on FWR or telly addicts or parenting. "Not mine" - quite clear English. That not belonging to me.

Enough4me · 11/02/2025 23:59

If Ross Kemp or Willoughby (example men) walks into a women's loos we now need to check, is he feeling like a woman rather than, "get out this is the woman's loos". Otherwise we may hurt his feelings, which matter more than our feelings.
However, if he's a man and hurts us then its our fault - why didn't we we shout out for help?
How do we know how to react, how do we tell who's there as a pretend women and who's there as a ...pretend woman?

nocoolnamesleft · 12/02/2025 00:04

How much coverage is this getting in Scotland? Because if I were a woman who had presented to that A&E in the relevant time period, requiring intimate examination, and I had asked for a female doctor, I would now be wondering if I had got one. I'm actually afraid there may be women out there sitting in a traumatised puddle of tears fearing that their conditional consent may have been overridden. Which I suspect would constitute assault. I'm very much hoping Dr Upton was just posturing for court, and would have too much respect for the process of consent to have done this. But I don't know. I think if I were one of these potential women, I'd be trying to glue myself together enough to demand the trust tell me whether or not this had happened. Shit.

Mollyollydolly · 12/02/2025 00:07

Those minutes are very interesting. NC must have a headache trying to pin the timeline down.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 00:16

Lark1ane · 11/02/2025 23:28

Yes. Especially as he is referring to it as a Hate Crime back in March. FFS.

And although the hate crime is discussed, it isn't considered serious enough to warrant being included on the list of actions/key minutes at the end of the minutes?

I'd love to know how the discussion was recorded in the original meeting, from which this was reported: The Health & Safety Incident Report for the period December 2023 to January 2024

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 00:30

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 00:16

And although the hate crime is discussed, it isn't considered serious enough to warrant being included on the list of actions/key minutes at the end of the minutes?

I'd love to know how the discussion was recorded in the original meeting, from which this was reported: The Health & Safety Incident Report for the period December 2023 to January 2024

Bits naming patients and staff tend to be in a confidential, unpublished section of the minutes. But I agree this may be the wrong committee for the relevant actions. Health organisations tend to have lots of layers of committees, it wouldn't do for managers to look unoccupied.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 00:38

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 00:16

And although the hate crime is discussed, it isn't considered serious enough to warrant being included on the list of actions/key minutes at the end of the minutes?

I'd love to know how the discussion was recorded in the original meeting, from which this was reported: The Health & Safety Incident Report for the period December 2023 to January 2024

In order to be a hate crime it must not only be directed against person with a protected characteristic, and because of that characteristic, but it also must be crime in its own right. What possible crime did they imagine had been committed?

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 00:40

RethinkingLife · 11/02/2025 23:51

When you think of the way that some people have been able to get Police Scotland to send people to England to investigate people accused of a NCHI, it's quite extraordinary that an alleged hate crime wasn't reported.

The whole thing baffles me. But I am assuming that such a bold statement in the minutes (assuming it is the incident and it would be a bit suprising if it's not) must have a lot of documentaton somewhere for everything that happened ahead of the document dated 15 Feb (grief, that's a year this Saturday).

Edited

Fascinating! I was musing about DU's evidence and comportment in Tribunal today and yesterday - enjoying it yesterday while schooling us all. Maybe less enjoyable today...

I wonder if it was ever supposed to come to this?
The notes, the Datix, the BMA advice etc and NC's assertion that this was a crafted narrative.

Was the idea to just exert control over one department or hospital .... and then it all backfired when SP got a solicitor. Panic! Shuffling of papers, start an(other) internal investigation etc

For the hospital to have a "hate incident" and then not report it to the police is "unusual" to use DU's word. Unless you choose not to do that because you don't want legal people crawling through your emails?

I had thought the hospital IX seemed unbelievably incompetent. But if DU was in the middle saying he didn't want to make a fuss, then no one would, would they? I wonder how DU persuaded Kate Searle that it was a good idea to send an email to everyone?

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 00:47

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 00:38

In order to be a hate crime it must not only be directed against person with a protected characteristic, and because of that characteristic, but it also must be crime in its own right. What possible crime did they imagine had been committed?

I'm getting in a muddle with words. DU called it a "hate incident". These minutes say "hate crime" - agreed that probably wouldn't get far. But I was thinking about the mention of a Non Hate Crime Incident (NHCI) which was mentioned up thread - which I confess I'd never heard of until now! But calling the police would have brought attention that you would want if it was genuine - and heat you'd want to avoid if it might have been exaggerated? Or am I reaching?

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 00:48

Crispin Sartwell, 2018, commenting on an NYT story.

Like you, what I want is a world of hope where we all listen to each other all day in the hope of catching each other saying something wrong, so we can destroy each other. Only thus can we all be free.
This is what it's like to be a college professor now, I believe. A lot of folks don't care at all what you're trying to teach them; they're sitting there waiting for the formulation that can be turned on you. It's part of creating a nurturing learning atmosphere, safe for all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/07/opinion/columbia-nimesh-patel-comedian-kicked-offstage.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Reading through Upton's endless note taking that seems to be a record of emotions and perceptions (which is all that is necessary for a NCHI) rather than factual observations, I thought of this - and the reality that some workplaces now make you wonder if you need to wear bodycams when sharing a space with other staff or interacting with them.

maltravers · 12/02/2025 00:57

Brainworm · 11/02/2025 18:07

Very long Tweet here, but thought it worth sharing:

Day 7 Peggie v NHS Fife - Upton’s cross-examination continues to unravel, exposing the glaring contradictions in his testimony.

@tribunaltweets reports that the session may be continuing without the live feed. Here's what happened before the feed was cut.

Naomi Cunningham’s precise questioning, he has been forced to acknowledge uncomfortable truths—none more damning than his admission that women must take the initiative to opt out of being seen by a male doctor rather than having their request for female-only care automatically respected.

The exchanges over female patients requesting a woman doctor were particularly striking. Upton insisted he had no obligation to disclose his sex to patients, despite admitting that it is not always obvious he is male. This led to a critical moment: when asked whether a rape survivor requesting a female doctor should have to explain why, he evaded the point, refusing to acknowledge that placing the burden on the patient to justify her request is cruel and inappropriate. Instead, he tried to equate the issue with other forms of discrimination, suggesting that accommodating a woman’s need for a female doctor was akin to handling a racist patient’s request. This false equivalence speaks volumes about his unwillingness to acknowledge why single-sex care matters.

When Cunningham pressed him on a scenario involving a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who explicitly requested a female doctor, Upton’s answer was evasive. He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place—possibly when she was already in distress and vulnerable. Cunningham pointed out the cruelty of this expectation, highlighting that a woman might only realise he is male once she is already being examined. Rather than acknowledging the obvious problem, Upton deflected, repeating that it was the patient’s responsibility to express discomfort.

The contradictions in his behaviour regarding the changing room incident were also laid bare. On Christmas Eve, he insisted on his right to be in the female changing room despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable. He framed her discomfort as bigotry rather than a legitimate expectation of privacy. Yet hours later, he claimed to feel unsafe, reporting distress over how Peggie had spoken to him. This inconsistency was key—he was willing to assert his right to be in a space where a woman was uncomfortable, but when faced with an uncomfortable interaction himself, he sought immediate action. Cunningham pressed him on this, pointing out that while he had demanded swift action from NHS Fife, he continued using the female changing room despite knowing Peggie had objected. His justification? That he would not let "bigoted opinions" dictate his behaviour. In other words, he dismissed her right to privacy and forced her into a situation she clearly wished to avoid.

His perception of hostility from Peggie was further scrutinised when it became clear that no one else recalled the incidents in the way he described. He had been documenting perceived slights—such as Peggie responding to another colleague rather than him—but these grievances amounted to little more than workplace friction. When confronted with the fact that neither Peggie nor other staff recalled the incidents he described, he fell back on the idea that it was his perception of hostility that mattered, rather than any objective reality. This was a devastating admission. A case that hinges on serious allegations against Peggie was revealed to rest not on clear-cut evidence, but on Upton’s personal feelings.

Perhaps the most striking moment came when Cunningham suggested that Upton’s determination to control language—insisting on the use of "she/her" pronouns and rejecting biological definitions—was about power. She put it to him that his position required total affirmation from colleagues, and that the issue with Peggie was that she refused to participate in what she described as an "immersive role play." Upton denied this but conceded that it "hurts" when people do not use his preferred language. This, combined with his legal team’s attempts to compel the tribunal to use his chosen terminology, underscores the imbalance at the heart of this case—women must be made to accommodate, but no such obligation is placed on him.

As the session progressed, the underlying theme of power and control became clearer. Upton’s insistence that his identity must be respected, while refusing to extend that same respect to women who request female-only care, was laid bare. His own shifting narrative—asserting himself in the changing room on Christmas Eve, only to claim fear and distress later—suggests an attempt to construct a grievance rather than a genuine concern for safety. His notes, detailing minor slights and perceived rudeness from Peggie, paint a picture not of someone facing discrimination, but of someone determined to build a case against a colleague who simply did not comply with his expectations.

At this stage, Upton’s credibility is in tatters. His testimony has exposed the fundamental flaws in self-ID policies—where women must justify their discomfort, while trans-identifying males are affirmed without question. The tribunal is laying bare the harsh reality of these policies in practice: women cannot opt out without consequence, and when they try, they are accused of bigotry, hostility, or worse. NHS Fife’s position in defending Upton is becoming increasingly indefensible. The tribunal is making it clear that this case is not just about one hospital—it is about whether women’s rights to privacy and dignity still mean anything at all.

This is excellent- who wrote it please?

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 00:59

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 00:38

In order to be a hate crime it must not only be directed against person with a protected characteristic, and because of that characteristic, but it also must be crime in its own right. What possible crime did they imagine had been committed?

Given how distraught DU seems to have self-reported self as being on the night of Xmas Eve and into Christmas day…

Can somebody help me out with Scots law? Does Scotland have a criminal offence that encompasses 'causing fear and alarm' and maybe even 'apprehension of violence' but doesn't actually involve physical contact. A variation on assault and battery in English law? I looked at this but I don't quite get it.

www.scottishsentencingcouncil.org.uk/news-and-media/spotlight-on-sentencing-blog/sentencing-assault-offences-in-scotland

If so, might something like that have been presented as the "crime" element and, thus, we have Schrödinger's hate crime?

I should think NC has quite a mass of material invisibly tucked her her sleeves.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 12/02/2025 01:01

Re the Unison TWAW motion - it will pass. Unison is fully on board that train, and nobody votes against anything at the women's conference.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 01:01

maltravers · 12/02/2025 00:57

This is excellent- who wrote it please?

boswelltoday on X.

https://x.com/boswelltoday

x.com

https://x.com/boswelltoday

TriesNotToBeCynical · 12/02/2025 01:02

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 00:59

Given how distraught DU seems to have self-reported self as being on the night of Xmas Eve and into Christmas day…

Can somebody help me out with Scots law? Does Scotland have a criminal offence that encompasses 'causing fear and alarm' and maybe even 'apprehension of violence' but doesn't actually involve physical contact. A variation on assault and battery in English law? I looked at this but I don't quite get it.

www.scottishsentencingcouncil.org.uk/news-and-media/spotlight-on-sentencing-blog/sentencing-assault-offences-in-scotland

If so, might something like that have been presented as the "crime" element and, thus, we have Schrödinger's hate crime?

I should think NC has quite a mass of material invisibly tucked her her sleeves.

I think the point is that Dr Upton could not have possibly had an apprehension of violence in the incident as he describes it. And making someone very upset and undervalued is not assault.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 01:08

For a second day in a row the student on work experience from Dublin makes the winning headline

gript.ie/peggie-upton-i-am-not-a-man/

WearyAuldWumman · 12/02/2025 01:08

nocoolnamesleft · 12/02/2025 00:04

How much coverage is this getting in Scotland? Because if I were a woman who had presented to that A&E in the relevant time period, requiring intimate examination, and I had asked for a female doctor, I would now be wondering if I had got one. I'm actually afraid there may be women out there sitting in a traumatised puddle of tears fearing that their conditional consent may have been overridden. Which I suspect would constitute assault. I'm very much hoping Dr Upton was just posturing for court, and would have too much respect for the process of consent to have done this. But I don't know. I think if I were one of these potential women, I'd be trying to glue myself together enough to demand the trust tell me whether or not this had happened. Shit.

All the local papers in Fife plus the Nationals are covering it.

The majority of people on the local FB pages are supporting SP. I think that the outliers are mostly Americans, though I've seen a couple of women (?) claiming that Dr Upton was lovely to them...

Apparently, Dr Upton is the only doctor who ever helped one woman with her endometriosis.

To quote an oft used local expression, I smell shite.

I was actually at A&E on the night of the 23rd into Christmas Eve and wasn't discharged until about 7 am (so a day before one of the incidents, if I understand correctly). I did spot a strange looking male in scrubs at one point, but no idea after all this time whether it was Upton or another bloke. (Ponytail and mascara, I thought. A lot of the nurses at the Vic sport fake eyelashes when they're not in surgery, from my experience, but I don't recall ever seeing a female doctor going about with lash extensions, etc.)

It's not like me to remember precise dates, but - as I've said in an earlier iteration of this thread, the senior (male) doctor in charge of A&E while I was in was voluble in his desire to get everyone off shift on Christmas Eve as early as possible. (I don't even understand how that's possible in an A&E setting, to be honest.)

My only personal interaction was with females. From experience, I'd rather deal with one of the Vic's female A&E docs if possible. (Unfortunately, I've had far too many visits there whilst advocating for my late mother and late husband. The last time I was there with DH, he'd accidentally swallowed a hearing aid battery. It's a long story...)

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