NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #13

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the liverstreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but I wouldn't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12

The telegraphs take on dr Uptons testimony
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/11/i-dont-have-to-tell-patients-im-trans-doctor-nhs-row/

Transgender Dr Beth Upton confirmed he would treat a female patient who requested a women doctor, and would only stop if she requested one after he started treatment. The medic made the confession as he was quizzed for a second day in an employment tribunal brought about by a suspended nurse.

from https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/trans-dr-upton-would-treat-34658714?int_source=nba

Another great article from the Telegraph, doing a great job making it clear that Dr Upton has no respect for anyone else https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/38348a65183c8c9d

Would a male nurse, walking unannounced into a room in which a woman was in the middle of having a camera inserted into her urethra (by a doctor, with another nurse already present), and lifting up the sheet be considered a sexual assault? I'm asking because this happened to me just 2 weeks ago, and I still feel so violated. Still can't get my head around it. The doctor and nurse said nothing and I can't get my head around that either.

It’s good. So pleased that so many (or, more than I had anticipated) are running with this angle.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24928119.transgender-doctor-continued-use-female-changing-rooms-row/

The Herald is one of Scotland's better papers, and the comments under the article are heartening, and written by men. Allies! :)

From what we have heard from DU I think Fife cannot win the ET - the rapid escalation of the original complaints and suspension of SP by bandying about terms like "hate crime" and "patient care concerns" before they had even taken statements - they seem to have prejudiced their own complaint process from the outset. Sp's own complaints were not taken seriously and the "patient care concerns" as described in the tribunal seem to have nothing to do with patients but to do with DU's hurt feelings and need to be "affirmed" constantly.

In a way, I can see how Fife got into this situation when faced with an arrogant, intransigent DU who is the epitome of "main character syndrome" and expected their needs to be central and catered to over all others. DU was keeping notes on staff, and probably intended to sue from the outset, so Fife decided to take the path of least resistance and force the rest of the staff to fall into line and comply #be kind.

Not sure what consequences there will be from the ET for DU. Obviously the non-disclosure is against him as will any suggestion that he exaggerated/padded the complaints. The problem is how much will the ET blame him personally? Or will they place liability on Fife for poor procedures and not investigating properly.

The question is how long can JR represent 2 clients with diverging interests?

Has anyone told Alice Roberts and/or Sally Hines?

Who is Llang Clegg?

Apologies if this has been asked before, but can any lawyers comment on the rules in UK (Scottish?) law about asking the two peeps involved to take a cheek swab to establish biological sex?

I believe it's cheap and non-invasive. And I presume peeps could always refuse... Might save a bit of time and taxpayers money.

That sounds shocking @HelenaHandcart
The NHS has policies around dignity and privacy. Maybe demand the D&P policy of the hospital you were at and put in a complaint via PALS.
I don't know if it would be considered sexual assault but it's disgraceful disregard for your dignity. Get that complaint in.

The noble Baroness has recd a reply to her letter and has duly uploaded it.

The GMA is mad as a box of frogs

Some years ago LangCleg was a very regular, highly respected commenter here. She has excellent safeguarding knowledge. She left (was banned?) when she refused to back down over a moderating issue.

She was pointing out that certain reporting behaviours were coercive control. It was misunderstood as an attack on the moderators.

Ooft. Nhs Fife surely can't ignore that title.

Not true, according to previous posts. And an inappropriate speculation.

spelling edit.

It really feels like the impact of trans theory has finally met with reality. If someone had told me 10, probably even 5, years ago that a man would be standing in a courtroom arguing he was a biological woman I simply wouldn't have believed you

I think for many people seeing these kind of things being said about A&E, which is something so many of us have experienced is bringing it to life in ways it hasn't previously.

I am deeply grateful for all the women who did recognise all these dangers years ago and had to fight a very lonely fight for such a long time.

"Talk to Her" by Pedro Almodovar. I don't know if you have seen it, but it is superb (to me anyway).
The protagonist was a nurse/aide who gave intimate care to a woman in a coma and made her pregnant. It's not that I am comparing this with anything mentioned on the thread, it's just that the texture of that film stayed with me for a long time afterwards and made me think of your post.

Sorry Poster, I've lost your name en route!

I think I remember an actual case of a nurse/aide making a comatose woman pregnant - 1990s? USA?
I never saw the Almodovar film you mention, so it's not a vague memory from that. I'll try to google it.

For a while we had a Spartacus moment- many of us changed names to incorporate LangCleg. Some are still around, I think. I’m many usernames along, now.

It was in Warwickshire about year 2000 i knew two witnesses in that case

I've seen LangCleg quoted a lot on Twitter recently as an important, prescient voice in all of this.

That would be an irrelevance. Nothing in the case depends on determining the sex of any party. Their sex is already known.
Upton's claim that he sees nuance in sex that the rest of us don't wouldn't be resolved by a cheek swab.

Still trying to catch up on today's action, what with the fast moving threads and tribunal tweets to look at.

Can anyone explain how/why everyone got bumped out of the online viewing. Was it for a reason or IT issues?
Is it expected that access will continue as before tomorrow or are they planning to shut the public out going forward?

I have the next two days off and hoping to watch some of the action, especially as NC will be asking more questions of DU (she hasn't finished with him yet has she?).

Thanks for all the info and documenting the threads so clearly.

Although I love the idea of Upton losing the License to Practice, I highly doubt it.

The bar for a ban seems incredibly high, and the GMC were the ones who voluntarily registered him as female in the first place.

Another telegraph article
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/11/i-dont-have-to-tell-patients-im-trans-doctor-nhs-row/

And one from the Spectator https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-arent-scotlands-politicians-standing-up-for-sandie-peggie/