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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #12

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/02/2025 11:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

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14
Harassedevictee · 11/02/2025 14:26

I keep thinking about the Darlington Nurses - they have the benefit of numbers all saying TW should not be in female CR.

I hope (expect) NHS England, the Darlington Memorial Hospital and their Trust may have observers watching this.

rogdmum · 11/02/2025 14:26

Lougle · 11/02/2025 14:17

I've tried to rejoin, was WFTCHTJ, disconnected and it now says my PIN is invalid?

I’m getting invalid pin as well

wantmorenow · 11/02/2025 14:26

Just remembered - what about the author of the email that went out to whole dept? Wasn't she o nly available today and going to be slotted into the testimony of BU? Has anything more been said about her? Forgot her initails? ET maybe?

BonfireLady · 11/02/2025 14:26

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 11/02/2025 12:42

Just popping on to leave a summary of this morning from Boswelltoday on X. I couldn’t see that it had already been posted.

Day 7 Peggie v NHS Fife - Upton’s cross-examination continues to unravel, exposing the glaring contradictions in his testimony.

@tribunaltweets reports that the session may be continuing without the live feed. Here's what happened before the feed was cut.

Naomi Cunningham’s precise questioning, he has been forced to acknowledge uncomfortable truths—none more damning than his admission that women must take the initiative to opt out of being seen by a male doctor rather than having their request for female-only care automatically respected.

The exchanges over female patients requesting a woman doctor were particularly striking. Upton insisted he had no obligation to disclose his sex to patients, despite admitting that it is not always obvious he is male. This led to a critical moment: when asked whether a rape survivor requesting a female doctor should have to explain why, he evaded the point, refusing to acknowledge that placing the burden on the patient to justify her request is cruel and inappropriate. Instead, he tried to equate the issue with other forms of discrimination, suggesting that accommodating a woman’s need for a female doctor was akin to handling a racist patient’s request. This false equivalence speaks volumes about his unwillingness to acknowledge why single-sex care matters.

When Cunningham pressed him on a scenario involving a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who explicitly requested a female doctor, Upton’s answer was evasive. He initially suggested it would depend on medical urgency but, when pushed, admitted that if the woman objected to his presence, he would step aside. This seemingly reasonable answer was undermined by the reality that it would fall on the patient to realise he was male in the first place—possibly when she was already in distress and vulnerable. Cunningham pointed out the cruelty of this expectation, highlighting that a woman might only realise he is male once she is already being examined. Rather than acknowledging the obvious problem, Upton deflected, repeating that it was the patient’s responsibility to express discomfort.

The contradictions in his behaviour regarding the changing room incident were also laid bare. On Christmas Eve, he insisted on his right to be in the female changing room despite knowing Peggie was uncomfortable. He framed her discomfort as bigotry rather than a legitimate expectation of privacy. Yet hours later, he claimed to feel unsafe, reporting distress over how Peggie had spoken to him. This inconsistency was key—he was willing to assert his right to be in a space where a woman was uncomfortable, but when faced with an uncomfortable interaction himself, he sought immediate action. Cunningham pressed him on this, pointing out that while he had demanded swift action from NHS Fife, he continued using the female changing room despite knowing Peggie had objected. His justification? That he would not let "bigoted opinions" dictate his behaviour. In other words, he dismissed her right to privacy and forced her into a situation she clearly wished to avoid.

His perception of hostility from Peggie was further scrutinised when it became clear that no one else recalled the incidents in the way he described. He had been documenting perceived slights—such as Peggie responding to another colleague rather than him—but these grievances amounted to little more than workplace friction. When confronted with the fact that neither Peggie nor other staff recalled the incidents he described, he fell back on the idea that it was his perception of hostility that mattered, rather than any objective reality. This was a devastating admission. A case that hinges on serious allegations against Peggie was revealed to rest not on clear-cut evidence, but on Upton’s personal feelings.

Perhaps the most striking moment came when Cunningham suggested that Upton’s determination to control language—insisting on the use of "she/her" pronouns and rejecting biological definitions—was about power. She put it to him that his position required total affirmation from colleagues, and that the issue with Peggie was that she refused to participate in what she described as an "immersive role play." Upton denied this but conceded that it "hurts" when people do not use his preferred language. This, combined with his legal team’s attempts to compel the tribunal to use his chosen terminology, underscores the imbalance at the heart of this case—women must be made to accommodate, but no such obligation is placed on him.

As the session progressed, the underlying theme of power and control became clearer. Upton’s insistence that his identity must be respected, while refusing to extend that same respect to women who request female-only care, was laid bare. His own shifting narrative—asserting himself in the changing room on Christmas Eve, only to claim fear and distress later—suggests an attempt to construct a grievance rather than a genuine concern for safety. His notes, detailing minor slights and perceived rudeness from Peggie, paint a picture not of someone facing discrimination, but of someone determined to build a case against a colleague who simply did not comply with his expectations.

At this stage, Upton’s credibility is in tatters. His testimony has exposed the fundamental flaws in self-ID policies—where women must justify their discomfort, while trans-identifying males are affirmed without question. The tribunal is laying bare the harsh reality of these policies in practice: women cannot opt out without consequence, and when they try, they are accused of bigotry, hostility, or worse. NHS Fife’s position in defending Upton is becoming increasingly indefensible. The tribunal is making it clear that this case is not just about one hospital—it is about whether women’s rights to privacy and dignity still mean anything at all.

This is great. Thank you for sharing.

Hi BBC News, ITV, The Guardian 👋, you there? This is how you could report it ⬆️ I appreciate it's probably a bit too steeped in accuracy and objectivity without all the Be Kind hyperbole, but perhaps it's time to put your big girl pants on and give it a go?

littlbrowndog · 11/02/2025 14:26

Skyellaskerry · 11/02/2025 14:24

I hope Scotland’s equivalent health person will also be asked the same question.

It’s Neil gray. He will be busy at the football so won’t want to answer

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/02/2025 14:26

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 11/02/2025 14:23

Seconded. I dislike policing what other people can and can't say when it's not the OP. It's all a bit Upton.

"It's all a bit Upton" 😂

Now that's a phrase we could use on here when faced with certain posters trying to bully women out of our rights.

MarieDeGournay · 11/02/2025 14:26

PoshCoffee · Today 14:23
Remember the hail? I've never heard anything so bloody loud!

GCITC · Today 14:22
Oh gosh yes!

I'm in two minds about this: should be it said in clipped RP tones, like Noel Coward, or should it be followed by Maurice Chevalier singing
'Ah yes, I remember eeet welll'
Grin

crabbyoldbat · 11/02/2025 14:26

The GMC registration issue is interesting - I suspect the re-registration is allowed, at least in part, so that someone can show they've been 'living as a woman' for GRC attainment purposes. It would be difficult to deny in that case IMO. I blame the GRA and it's criteria

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 11/02/2025 14:26

While we're waiting, I can't be bothered to go back and find what you were all saying at the point where NC was asking DU about how he would interpret Pete's blood test results. Am I correct in thinking that it was the first and only time DU used the word "sex"? Iirc he said something like, "Well, if his gender identity matches his sex"...?

GCITC · 11/02/2025 14:26

Michael Foran has said he believes NC is still waiting for the documents, or has only recently received them and is now reading them.

FallenSloppyDead · 11/02/2025 14:27

nauticant · 11/02/2025 14:18

If anyone wants to set up a "parallel" technical issues thread they're welcome to do so. They can post a link on this one and next time I set up a new thread I'll try to remember to include a link in the header.

I think it is too late for this tribunal. Might be a good idea for the future though. I would have thought it would actually be of benefit to anyone who is struggling to find info and support in one place rather than trawling through a fast moving thread

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/02/2025 14:27

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 13:59

Exactly.

Thus potentially demonstrating something of a vendetta / controlling behaviour on the part of Upton which would completely undermine the creditibility of Upton as a reliable source of information about Sandie's behaviour.

It turns the idea that Sandie was the one harassing, on its head - it starts to look like Upton was seeking to try and punish Sandie at all costs.

Keep in mind that Upton, has explicitly said that nothing Sandie could do would be right and has said in various ways that nothing short of full compliance of indulging the full immersive cosplay and use of pronouns would be acceptable in their view.

NC has explicitly identified it as coercive.

Omission of potential evidence with this background isn't a good look.

None of this has been done by Sandie it might be added. All these actions were completely done by the free will and admission of Upton. These are unforced actions.

Its not a good look when the actual case is supposed to be about Sandie harassing Upton, not the other way round.

It starts to look incredibly vindicative.

The suspension was about SP harassing BU/patient safety concerns. The case is brought by SP - it is very much about NHS Fife and BU treating her unfairly and harassing her.

ickky · 11/02/2025 14:28

It is totally pointless setting up another thread, nobody will use it and @nauticant will have her time split even further trying to update both.

If you don't want to hear all irrelevant chatter, either skip over it or join twitter and read Tribunal tweets.

This is not a paid for public service, you get what you get.

Datun · 11/02/2025 14:28

GCITC · 11/02/2025 14:26

Michael Foran has said he believes NC is still waiting for the documents, or has only recently received them and is now reading them.

Bang goes that theory then

AAT65 · 11/02/2025 14:28

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 14:25

I hadn't realised that NICE didn't cover Scoltand!

That's why sometimes Scottish people get access to drugs English/Welsh people don't under NICE (and vice versa).

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 14:28

FallenSloppyDead · 11/02/2025 14:27

I think it is too late for this tribunal. Might be a good idea for the future though. I would have thought it would actually be of benefit to anyone who is struggling to find info and support in one place rather than trawling through a fast moving thread

Fill your boots.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 14:29

RebeccaSaysNo article about GMC allowing doctors to change gender on register https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/doctor-no

And Alan Henness article about his FOI to the GMC about this https://www.sexnotgender.info/the-gendered-medical-council-2/

Doctor, No

The GMC is appeasing activists by allowing doctors to hide their sex from patients

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/doctor-no

IDareSay · 11/02/2025 14:29

AAT65 · 11/02/2025 14:25

Health is devolved Equality Act is not.

I wonder if the Workplace Regulations that Michael Foran referred to apply in Scotland?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/02/2025 14:29

KnottyAuty · 11/02/2025 14:00

Sure - but there will be faults won't there? The judge mentioning "victim" etc.

That, non disclosure etc might allow SP to appeal. Not seen anything so far that would allow BU or NHS Fife to do so.

Boiledbeetle · 11/02/2025 14:29

ickky · 11/02/2025 14:28

It is totally pointless setting up another thread, nobody will use it and @nauticant will have her time split even further trying to update both.

If you don't want to hear all irrelevant chatter, either skip over it or join twitter and read Tribunal tweets.

This is not a paid for public service, you get what you get.

I Love You Kiss GIF by ProBit Global

.

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 11/02/2025 14:29

I also think the degree of open justice access is incredibly important to the case. The only reason GI has taken hold and Upton and men like him enabled is because it's been done in darkness and secrecy and without public scrutiny. I can see how many are waiting in the lobby but I can't see how many can't get in at all nor how many emailed the court and got nothing back. Imperfect, yes, but this thread gives a flavour of how many are still shut out.

Mollyollydolly · 11/02/2025 14:30

I know the tech posts can be annoying but it's an Open Justice case, it's not trivial if people can't get access. We wouldn't all be here posting if it wasn't for the fact it's an Open Justice case. Still not heard back for request for a new pin btw.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 14:30

Please, just scroll on if there is an irrelevant thread - surely people should be welcoming, helpful and share information here - it does appear that EdinburghET is having technical issues and hopefully sorted for tomorrow - disappointing but there are different ways to follow what is going on.

musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 14:30

Sound seems to be back on.. but only sad bricks visible as yet

nauticant · 11/02/2025 14:30

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 14:25

I hadn't realised that NICE didn't cover Scoltand!

Didn't you know Scotland isn't NICE?

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