NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #8

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7

NC - does it follow from those answers that - build, hair, clothing, speaking, all being that can vary, independent of GI, does it follow that Pete could say - big muscly short haired bearded Pete, absolutely manly Pete, would be entitled to say I'm a GNC woman, my GI is woman?

BU - he may. I can't speak for the way he feels.

Can Pete say he's a woman?
😍

That’s one male trait that’s never lost in the process of transitioning.

Only if it's the kind where you neck a shot for every right answer. Think we're gonna need it.

Lots of interruptions from JR, way more than are usual. This will take weeks at this rate! And it doesn't help that Dr U is a very hard witness to control.

There are rules about not asking questions that degrade or humiliate a witness, but in this case I agree with NC that this is the heart of the case - she has to put these questions to Dr U.

I didn't like the line of questioning about the advert, or the cultural reason why we have sex segregated changing rooms. We haven't seen the adverts, and I don't really see how the witness can be expected to talk about this.

There's a golden rule that in cross examination you never ask a witness 'why', because it just gives them an opportunity to blather on. I actually don't like this rule - sometimes when a witness says something surprising, it can be very helpful to ask them why. When Dr U said he wasn't male, I would have asked him why he said that.

BU - if that were the case, I imagine there would be challenges. Like any GNC person.

I wish she'd ask him directly, what makes you think you're a woman when you're biologically a man?

DU I can't speak for Pete. I imagine there would be challenges for Pete😂

Boom!

Haha here too

Pete is like any other gender non-conforming woman. How long before he starts talking about lesbians being challenged in toilets?

NC - Does it follow that Pete could say that he’s a (gender non-conforming) woman
DRU- I can’t speak for Pete - I imagine there could be challenges, like for a GNC woman, for any GNC person could be challenges.

The "Wall of Sad" behind DrU
🤣🤣🤣

We need a TRA bingo card.

What on earth do the parents make of his answers.

NC is circling like a vulture...

NC - if Pete's position is that he is sincere, he's strongly GNC, no surgery, no hormones, male bodied, everybody greets him as a man, nevertheless if he says he's a GNC woman, and entitled to use the CR, that would be [missed]?

So - if trans-women are allowed into changing-rooms, they are mixed sex.

Boom

Pause

Circling well

Long pause

Looong pause.

Strange gurning going on with DUd face now

loooong silence there to whether pete can say he's a woman and allowed to use the women's changing room.

NC So bearded muscular Pete could say his gender identity is a woman? And if he's sincere and has had no treatment he has a right to use the CR?

DU long, long pause.