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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

OP posts:
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37
TimeForATerf · 09/02/2025 23:39

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 19:32

Genius!

Nah, SL is all wrong and I adore her. I vote for Sharon Small, who also hails from Kirkcaldy.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 09/02/2025 23:40

KnackeredandWiser · 09/02/2025 23:32

Thanks Szygy it seems to be sudden onset dementia, which is horrible, but she's doing OK. Me not so much though.

I'm glad you raised this and apologies for not being able to remember your post. I only get chance to catch up when she's gone to bed. And as you say these threads move so quickly, which is bloody brilliant seeing so many people commenting with such thoughtful and knowledgeable insights.

I would bloody love NC to ask DU "if NHS Fife is such an inclusive employer for transgender staff members, why did you feel that you had to use the female changing room?' Why wouldn't you have felt safe in the male changing room? What did you fear might happen to you?'

If I were asked that question in his position I would reply that I feared that the men, not being as perceptive as women, might think I was an actual woman. But I expect he might answer in a much more self-centred way about validation and acknowledgement and feelings. So expect the question would work as well as you hope.

Mayaisashero · 09/02/2025 23:41

TimeForATerf · 09/02/2025 23:39

Nah, SL is all wrong and I adore her. I vote for Sharon Small, who also hails from Kirkcaldy.

Pure genius - SS would be perfect. I rescind all previous suggestions.

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 23:44

Well I do not consider myself told off. If @prh47bridge wants to learn when he makes a mistake and try to understand why we are so very, very angry beneath all the light-hearted humour, then he is warmly welcome. But if he just wants to feel upset that someone dared to criticise him then he is part of the problem. The choice is yours @prh47bridge . I genuinely hope you choose the former

Peregrina · 09/02/2025 23:46

......not being as perceptive as women, might think I was an actual woman.....

Men on the whole may not be as perceptive as women, but no, I doubt if any man would think he was an actual woman.

They might think he's a complete idiot prancing around in a dress. Or they might wonder how on earth anyone got through medical school without knowing the difference between the two sexes.

Peregrina · 09/02/2025 23:48

I did find prh47bridge's funny, and I am also pleased that men are also speaking out instead of saying, nah, doesn't concern my, so why bother.

RethinkingLife · 09/02/2025 23:49

I've just finished wrangling with a particularly foul review system in the hope of freeing up some time to follow the tribunal proceedings on Monday. It will have to be via MN and TT as I have to prepare for a lengthy evening meeting for Monday, a very long event for Tuesday, and another set of engagements for Wednesday that don't finish until 21:00.

Somewhere in there, I should be dealing with my current volume of administrivia that will only be added to when the post-weekend deluge hits my inbox.

However, it continues to lift my heart to see all the modest donations expressing quiet support for SP and her family.

And I continue to learn from the many perspectives on these threads and hope to learn more from all of the valuable contributors and commenters who make following along with tribunals such an educational experience and a remarkable insight into current zeitgeist complexities.

CarefulN0w · 09/02/2025 23:50

I've spent all my weekend downtime trying to catch up and finally got to the end of thread 6, only to discover this one is now 600 odd posts. I'm beginning to understand how Sisyphus must have felt, but am grateful for the new thread, nonetheless. I didn't manage to catch anything live last week and am hoping to follow at least some days this week.

Re Sandie's funding, the nursing and health unions have been pretty hopeless at supporting women against gender ideology until now. If by any remote chance, they are supporting her, I would be very happy. Shocked. But delighted and glad my subs are being spent in a good cause.

prh47bridge · 09/02/2025 23:52

larklane17 · 09/02/2025 23:38

I'm not picking on him. But I consider myself told off.

That really was not my intention. My apologies for any offence.

RethinkingLife · 09/02/2025 23:58

TimeForATerf · 09/02/2025 23:39

Nah, SL is all wrong and I adore her. I vote for Sharon Small, who also hails from Kirkcaldy.

Excellent contender for the fantasy cast.

Manxexile · 10/02/2025 00:00

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 21:47

@Manxexile I have pushed this all the way to the senior leadership team who just say it's HR's decision. So now I've got myself on the group looking at how we gather data on protected characteristics and will go via that route.

The problem is that senior leadership are cowards and they don't want to face down the TRAs so it's easier to ignore the rights of women

Good luck then.

Mollyollydolly · 10/02/2025 00:00

My dogs just gone into labour, two puppies born up to now, so a sleepless night ahead - I've told her they all need to be out by 1030 in the morning!

Bannedontherun · 10/02/2025 00:01

@larklane17 I dont think you were but it could go that way, lets point the guns in the right place.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 10/02/2025 00:09

It's after midnight so we are officially in Metadata Monday (pinched from X).

Hope you all get what you wished for on this important day.

🥳

Manxexile · 10/02/2025 00:12

Peregrina · 09/02/2025 23:48

I did find prh47bridge's funny, and I am also pleased that men are also speaking out instead of saying, nah, doesn't concern my, so why bother.

Yeah. I don't really understand the hostility

larklane17 · 10/02/2025 00:20

Bannedontherun · 10/02/2025 00:01

@larklane17 I dont think you were but it could go that way, lets point the guns in the right place.

I'm not pointing guns at anyone. OK? I expressed a view. to a male poster on here on ONE post he made whilst acknowledging his other helpful ones.

And was quite polite in FWR terms.

That's twice you've pulled me now in defence of him. along with others.
I think everyone's point has been made.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 10/02/2025 00:24

fanOfBen · 09/02/2025 09:30

The short distance is so implausible that I wonder whether it's possible we've got it wrong? Does anyone remember that they were watching when the distance was actually mentioned? I don't think I was.

(And yes, the commentisfree article is outstanding, and Sonia Sodha won't be responsible for the heading, iiuc.)

It's taken me all day to catch up but yes, he definitely said half a metre away. Not even two rulers and HE WAVED.

FallenSloppyDead · 10/02/2025 00:25

larklane17 · 10/02/2025 00:20

I'm not pointing guns at anyone. OK? I expressed a view. to a male poster on here on ONE post he made whilst acknowledging his other helpful ones.

And was quite polite in FWR terms.

That's twice you've pulled me now in defence of him. along with others.
I think everyone's point has been made.

Yeah. I'm going to take a break from here. Not really in the mood to watch a man's hurt feelings being smoothed. It's how we got in this mess in the first place

Datun · 10/02/2025 00:26

Still Musing on him getting changed in a corner. And not wanting to give the impression that he was looking at anyone.

I get quite possibly disproportionately enraged over these men's cluelessness about women's spaces.

Pound to a penny, their impression will come from porn. And also, I bet, asking other TRA's what do you do in a woman's changing room. (with all the predictable honesty you'd expect from TRAs talking about female changing rooms).

It's the spectacular arrogance and blindness in not understanding why women need their own changing rooms. And yes, it is to be protected from men looking at them while they're getting undressed, but also to deal with menstruation, leaking breasts on your clothes, maybe feeling unwell etc.

Upton's need for a women's changing room is to validate his male feelings.

The absolute bloody gall of pointing out how he averts his gaze, even though it makes him fucking sad. It will never occur to him, in a million years, that women aren't sad if they can't look at each other getting changed!

I know we've said it a thousand times, but it's the height of enough for this man to actually be using the very protection that women require, to further intimidate them.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 10/02/2025 00:31

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 18:06

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

I simply do not believe any of that has happened. You can see in photos of him that he's a large, well built, very masculine looking man. No-one is mistaking him for a woman.

BU's description of the 'cat-calling' in the Case Management notes:

'Outside of work, Dr. Upton accepted that there have been incidents when she
has been “cat-called” by people thinking she was a women, then those same
people said something which questioned whether she was a woman.'

When he described it in court, he left off the second half for some reason.

Datun · 10/02/2025 00:31

And yes, when I've been in a communal changing room, most women will face walls, lockers, etc using towels strategically.

There's always one free spirit and no one minds, but you don't tend to chat and make eye contact whilst naked.

I also remember communal changing rooms in department stores. Everyone hated them.

Szygy · 10/02/2025 00:37

@KnackeredandWiser I've been there with a parent with dementia and it’s devastating. 💐 and hugs for you.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 10/02/2025 00:38

Datun · 10/02/2025 00:26

Still Musing on him getting changed in a corner. And not wanting to give the impression that he was looking at anyone.

I get quite possibly disproportionately enraged over these men's cluelessness about women's spaces.

Pound to a penny, their impression will come from porn. And also, I bet, asking other TRA's what do you do in a woman's changing room. (with all the predictable honesty you'd expect from TRAs talking about female changing rooms).

It's the spectacular arrogance and blindness in not understanding why women need their own changing rooms. And yes, it is to be protected from men looking at them while they're getting undressed, but also to deal with menstruation, leaking breasts on your clothes, maybe feeling unwell etc.

Upton's need for a women's changing room is to validate his male feelings.

The absolute bloody gall of pointing out how he averts his gaze, even though it makes him fucking sad. It will never occur to him, in a million years, that women aren't sad if they can't look at each other getting changed!

I know we've said it a thousand times, but it's the height of enough for this man to actually be using the very protection that women require, to further intimidate them.

Perhaps the only positive thing is that the wide reporting of his total self-centredness and pathological need for admiration, let alone validation, makes it much clearer to those of us who have had a certain sympathy with the small number of people with genuine body dysmorphia that the present law is wrong and that women need legal protection from all this.

lcakethereforeIam · 10/02/2025 00:41

Mollyollydolly · 10/02/2025 00:00

My dogs just gone into labour, two puppies born up to now, so a sleepless night ahead - I've told her they all need to be out by 1030 in the morning!

Puppies! 😍

I hope all goes well. Pics? Obviously not right now. In the future, when convenient.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 10/02/2025 00:41

I am not that free spirit! Despite much practice I still cannot manage to get out of a wetsuit with any dignity, so I just try to do that as far away from anyone as humanly possible.

No one is lingering around in the niff or making eye contact if they can possibly avoid it.

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