NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

I think sometimes we like to run a story that goes 'this could never happen to me/my child because.... '

As a parent of a child who had a brush with gi and is hopefully out the other side, though I still have the odd nightmare about it, I'm really grateful that it came at a time that we still had a little bit of sway. If your child had been introduced to gender a few years later at university it must be far harder to tread that line between trying to keep your child grounded in reality and them not being tugged away by the 'if your parents don't fully support your new identity, well be your rainbow family now' brigade.

It did feel a touch like seeing the Judge without his wig on… 🫣

I don't know if there are any journalists reading these threads looking for an angle on this story, but if there are, or if anyone on this thread knows any, please can I suggest that one thing that really would make a difference to the public understanding of what's happening is Sandie's dad's funeral collection. Not asked for, not publicised in any way - but donation after donation of £5, £10, £20, and comment after comment which show how many of the general public are on Sandie's side and how acutely they understand the significance of what is happening here. If anyone wanted to take the temperature of the public mood and find a way to explain how much people really do care about this issue, this is surely it. Please, someone, try and place a story?

I've seen a few people reference this across all these threads and on X but I haven't seen anyone yet pick up on this materially. NC might of course and I hope she does! Apologies if I have missed anything of course. Am dipping in and out whilst caring for my Mum.

What exactly did DU think was going to happen to him in the male changing rooms at the hospital after he presented as female? Surely they are inclusive and welcoming and professional NHS employees? Is he saying that all his male colleagues might have reacted badly in someway, so much so that he had to take refuge in the female changing room? Is he saying that all his male colleagues are so 'transphobic' that he just couldn't contemplate getting changed in there?

It's a rhetorical question of course. He didn't want to be welcomed and accepted in the male changing room. He wanted to use the female changing rooms to be 'validated'. Otherwise he'd have raised complaints about his male NHS colleagues. But he didn't. Did he.

Gosh this reminded me of one of the episodes in The Great British Cult podcast. I can’t remember which but it gave advice to families about how to avoid losing your loved one to the cult. Things to say. Things to avoid saying. What support to give. Not something that I’d thought to link to gender issues until you posted this. Food for thought - well worth a listen anyway: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001kvf8?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

https://x.com/GussieGrips/status/1888012636081492100?t=sc5Z7O9uUWfCPdCnF-fWpg&s=19

Elaine did a tweet about it the other day"

"You work in PR? Good at what you do? Interested in the power of the soft stories?

Here’s one, Sandie Peggie’s dad’s memorial fund has increased cos women value who he raised and what she is willing to do.

Makes your nose tingle, doesn’t it?"

I did forward a link to the BBC a couple of days ago, but I guess the lack of a drag queen killed the story for them

I suppose the BBC might feel it wasn't pro-trans impartial enough, but surely one of the dailies could pick it up?

I've just sent a link to Nick Wallis of Post Office Inquiry fame. I know he is very gender critical. Maybe he can get it out somewhere.

IF? Yes, you did miss.

Having announced that you were a man, you then went off on a frolic about blundering into womens toilets and how YOU felt. Onto musing about women in YOUR changing rooms, and YOUR appearance and potential state of undress, in the event of such circs,

Not so welcome. Particularly given the subject matter of these threads.

Read the room please. Relevant contributions always welcome on FWR and you have made some helpful ones on procedure. However, perhaps not first choice for the Lesbian Massive Comedy Night.

Thank you for your understanding.

Holy moly. That's so moving. I hope it beings some comfort to Sandie and her family.

That must be hundreds of women who've donated.

@prh47bridge i appreciate your contributions on the law here it is very informative and helpful. I also think your participation on legal matters is very helpful too.

I do look for your comments on law but noticed your clipped advice and thought you might be male.

But be careful your own personal emotional reactions in your own real life as a male have no value here with very very angry women,

I asked this very question on here this afternoon, Knackered (to be fair, it may have been on the previous thread - they’ve moved so quickly I’ve totally lost count). And I came to pretty much exactly the same conclusion as you.

(I hope your Mum is OK)

I would respectfully remind you that I was responding to someone who asked if men don’t mind women who say they are men in their changing room.

great article by Jenny Lindsay, author of Hounded: women, harms and the gender wars

Some good comments, too

I may be going off at a tangent here, but if a trans identifying person can be given a new false birth certificate what happens to the old record? In the old days this would literally have been entered into a register.

I have read at least one crime story about a page being ripped out of the parish register to hide a marriage (and thus rendering any other couples listed on the same page unmarried.)

So if the Gender Recognition Act was scrapped and people (usually men) had to go back to their original birth certificate, would it be possible to do so because the old record will still exist in the archives?

I feel quite angry that such deception is practiced - what is the point of keeping records when they are knowingly false?

Elaine does have a way with words. Waves to Elaine 👋

Literally hundreds of women!

Just linking this excellent Sonia Sodha article, not sure if it had been done before? She doesn't mince her words..I'm glad the Guardian is coming back down to earth, if only it hadn't taken so long..🙄

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/09/no-woman-should-be-forced-to-change-her-clothes-in-front-of-a-trans-colleague

Hopefully the donations give Sandie a boost. She should keep her head held high, after all, she isn't the one lying.

That disapproving male tone gets you absolutely nowhere on FWR.

Let’s not pick on @prh47bridge he has in my experience here been very helpful, he is not the problem.

Thanks Szygy it seems to be sudden onset dementia, which is horrible, but she's doing OK. Me not so much though.

I'm glad you raised this and apologies for not being able to remember your post. I only get chance to catch up when she's gone to bed. And as you say these threads move so quickly, which is bloody brilliant seeing so many people commenting with such thoughtful and knowledgeable insights.

I would bloody love NC to ask DU "if NHS Fife is such an inclusive employer for transgender staff members, why did you feel that you had to use the female changing room?' Why wouldn't you have felt safe in the male changing room? What did you fear might happen to you?'

I've managed to clear my day tomorrow apart from having to deal with a 4yr old, so looking forward to watching NC take on DU with you all.
As for the film, Anne-Marie Duff for SP

So you think what you said was appropriate.
I see.

I'm not picking on him. But I consider myself told off.