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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

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37
NotMaroonButRaspberry · 09/02/2025 16:50

Tmpnamenb · 09/02/2025 16:19

Do we know at which point DU asked for clarification on his use of the cr? Was it before or after the first time that SP left the changing room to wake for him to finish in there?

DU states that he started at this job in August 23 and from the off used female changing and toilet facilities as, "that's what he's done elsewhere with no issues." 2-3 weeks after starting his job he had a check in session with his supervisor where he mentioned his usage of female facilities, "as he's aware some people have issues with trans people and changing rooms."

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/02/2025 16:53

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 13:21

My apologies. The well-stocked fridge shows you are clearly a woman❤

Oh bugger. That's one more piece of evidence (my well-stocked fridge) that the gender identity theorists are actually right after all, and I am a woman. On the other hand, I can come up with some (non-physical) evidence that I'm a man. I must be some sort of hermaphrodite ... but they don't exist in the human population ... so am I not a human?

It's all so confusing.

NImumconfused · 09/02/2025 16:57

PersephonePitstop · 09/02/2025 16:45

It’s not that simple unfortunately.

I became aware of a case of a trans staff member requesting access to the opposite sex staff changing room and initially having their request denied.

A conversation with HR and a read of the NHS trust’s policy showed that they were perfectly entitled to have their gender changed on their staff record and be given the required access.

An ‘education session’ from HR to all managers soon followed. 🙄

That's what health service mandatory "equality" training says in NI at the moment - trans people can use the facilities of their chosen gender and we should not complain or ask any questions about this, or we are being discriminatory. Women's sex-based rights are nowhere to be seen. It would be great if this case clarified the position in terms of he employer's obligation to provide single sex changing facilities.

NotAGentleReminder · 09/02/2025 16:57

PersephonePitstop · 09/02/2025 16:45

It’s not that simple unfortunately.

I became aware of a case of a trans staff member requesting access to the opposite sex staff changing room and initially having their request denied.

A conversation with HR and a read of the NHS trust’s policy showed that they were perfectly entitled to have their gender changed on their staff record and be given the required access.

An ‘education session’ from HR to all managers soon followed. 🙄

Yes, in my frustration I was lamenting that it should be this simple. But know that it isn't and our institutions are captured and have imo some frankly batshit policies.

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 16:58

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/02/2025 16:53

Oh bugger. That's one more piece of evidence (my well-stocked fridge) that the gender identity theorists are actually right after all, and I am a woman. On the other hand, I can come up with some (non-physical) evidence that I'm a man. I must be some sort of hermaphrodite ... but they don't exist in the human population ... so am I not a human?

It's all so confusing.

Like your username!
Maybe I’ll get a T Shirt with ROGC on it

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 16:58

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/02/2025 16:53

Oh bugger. That's one more piece of evidence (my well-stocked fridge) that the gender identity theorists are actually right after all, and I am a woman. On the other hand, I can come up with some (non-physical) evidence that I'm a man. I must be some sort of hermaphrodite ... but they don't exist in the human population ... so am I not a human?

It's all so confusing.

It may be that there is a woman somewhere in your house restocking the fridge. Have you checked?

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 17:00

NotAGentleReminder · 09/02/2025 16:57

Yes, in my frustration I was lamenting that it should be this simple. But know that it isn't and our institutions are captured and have imo some frankly batshit policies.

But policies can't trump the law, can they? The law says single sex changing. It's the policies which are at fault?

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:10

I asked a question in my institution about why we recorded gender when the protected characteristic is sex and that policies were allowing access to single sex spaces on the basis of self-ID. The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

frenchnoodle · 09/02/2025 17:12

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:10

I asked a question in my institution about why we recorded gender when the protected characteristic is sex and that policies were allowing access to single sex spaces on the basis of self-ID. The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

The old "getting ahead of the law" trap.

NotAGentleReminder · 09/02/2025 17:13

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 17:00

But policies can't trump the law, can they? The law says single sex changing. It's the policies which are at fault?

I'd say it was the way the law has been interpreted (by orgs with an agenda like Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence) when drafting the policies that is at fault. And that has been allowed to override the workplace law which says there must be single sex provisions. The law seems to be a mess to a layperson like me. I think the GRA should be repealed and the PC of GR should be removed from the Equality Act and every reference to 'gender' removed from legislation so that there is no scope for conflating it with sex. Now I'll just wait to get deleted!

FallenSloppyDead · 09/02/2025 17:13

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:10

I asked a question in my institution about why we recorded gender when the protected characteristic is sex and that policies were allowing access to single sex spaces on the basis of self-ID. The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

That is interesting. May I ask what year was that answer given?

ConstructionTime · 09/02/2025 17:14

KnottyAuty · 09/02/2025 09:38

This is a very useful discussion. The Judge in the pre-trial Case Management Order said the request by DrU for anonymity was refused because while they had some not unfounded concerns about possible violence against TW there was no actual evidence of real risk to him personally.

So this discussion is making me think of who is the risk to TW? Well statistically - like for females generally - the risk to TW mainly comes from males. That is why there is a female only changing room in the first place. So if Dr U was generally concerned or anxious about safety etc, then it would be natural to want to change in a safer place? So was it not concerns about the male CR which lead Dr U to the female facility? Therefore illustrating why females would feel less safe about a bio male entering the female CR?

That's also something that was discussed here last year in another topic and what I thought, too.
The problem is men excluding feminine looking men and especially TW as "not one of us" = not manly enough.
It is of course also a validation problem that women don't believe them or rather, that they need the validation of women to exist as tw, but that's just one part of it.

Men "validate" them as tw because they exclude them, too. I've said it before, of course guys can wear dresses - also as men and not only as tw - but what is the reaction if they use men's facilities?

If the danger is so big from the men's side, why not go to the root of the problem and "educate" men? (/irony). They are using women as a shield from other men. You couldn't make it up.

CheekySnake · 09/02/2025 17:15

oldwomanwhoruns · 09/02/2025 17:00

But policies can't trump the law, can they? The law says single sex changing. It's the policies which are at fault?

The problem we've got, which was quietly put in place with the GRA, is the idea that by saying he's a woman, a man becomes female, with the deliberately slippery 'treated as a woman for all purposes' wording. So if that's true, it's a single sex space even with him in it, as long as he has decided he's female. I'm not even sure he has to make this declaration public.

What we are seeing now is the collision between this as a idea on a piece of paper and real life, where it turns out that a man saying he's a woman is just a man saying he's a woman, people know he's a man, and they won't be forced to pretend otherwise. We were always going to end up here, at tribunals and in court when that legal fiction met cold, hard reality.

After all, the difference between male and female isn't trivial. The ability to grow new humans isn't inconsequential. It's not some silly thing that can be hand waved away. We've got centuries of evidence to show that women are restricted, controlled, punished economically, physically harmed and killed for it.

BecauseRonald · 09/02/2025 17:16

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:10

I asked a question in my institution about why we recorded gender when the protected characteristic is sex and that policies were allowing access to single sex spaces on the basis of self-ID. The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

Wth

Igmum · 09/02/2025 17:21

I've subscribed to Tribunal Tweets - been meaning to do this for ages since they do absolutely invaluable work. I've now got 5 free one-month subscriptions in my gift so if any of you FWR harridans would like to sample TT's substack just DM me and I will try to figure out how to send the link.

As an incentive it looks like the Almut Gadow v OU case scheduled for the end of February is going to last nearly a month, I assume because the OU are pulling their usual tactic of getting everyone and their support dogs to give evidence.

CheekySnake · 09/02/2025 17:23

NotAGentleReminder · 09/02/2025 17:13

I'd say it was the way the law has been interpreted (by orgs with an agenda like Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence) when drafting the policies that is at fault. And that has been allowed to override the workplace law which says there must be single sex provisions. The law seems to be a mess to a layperson like me. I think the GRA should be repealed and the PC of GR should be removed from the Equality Act and every reference to 'gender' removed from legislation so that there is no scope for conflating it with sex. Now I'll just wait to get deleted!

The law is a mess. You could perhaps argue on purpose.

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:24

@FallenSloppyDead 2024 but the bit about legal advice was repeated this year

guinnessguzzler · 09/02/2025 17:28

We really need a 'shocked' react emoji.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 09/02/2025 17:30

I'm really hoping that this case is disruptive enough that we can point to it in workplaces as a, "heads up, you wouldn't want this to happen" kind of thing.

My local acute NHS trust has a trans patient policy that is all about self id and requested accommodation and makes no mention of EIA and conflicts with other PCs at all. It would be great to be able to flag this to them as a risk of litigation etc.

Justabaker · 09/02/2025 17:42

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:24

@FallenSloppyDead 2024 but the bit about legal advice was repeated this year

Try them on GDPR. Gender is special category data for GDPR purposes. It put the cat amongst the gender pigeons for 10 years in my old firm.

anyolddinosaur · 09/02/2025 17:43

there are 2 cases in England that involve similar issues and have gardens that would benefit from a few more plants. Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work for Faye and Harassed and Victimised for supporting Women’s Rights for Sarah Holman.

There may also be a case for the Darlington nurses unless Wes Streeting can intervene - but no known garden.

Justabaker · 09/02/2025 17:44

Harassedevictee · 09/02/2025 16:41

I was talking about the cost all parties may incur if the ET is postponed etc. in terms of paying their respective teams.

I was not referring to costs that one side might claim.

Did you read my post?

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:46

@Justabaker I have got myself on the group looking at data use in EDI so will be pushing this a lot further! GDPR is a good shout

PepeParapluie · 09/02/2025 17:46

Chrysanthemum5 · 09/02/2025 17:10

I asked a question in my institution about why we recorded gender when the protected characteristic is sex and that policies were allowing access to single sex spaces on the basis of self-ID. The answer from HR was that they expected the law to change to catch up with our policies and that the lawyers had advised them it was too complicated to keep facilities single sex

That’s interesting (and concerning). I suppose the things we know for sure right now (until the Supreme Court decision offers at least a bit of clarity) are that (a) the law is a bit uncertain on the meaning of woman/ man and male/female and the effect of the GRA and (b) the people who tend to be the most vocal and most politically active on this topic are trans identified individuals or their allies.

If you are a workplace with a trans identified person, then you know you’ve got one person likely to make a complaint if you enforce a single sex policy. What you probably don’t know is how many people among your workforce might take a stand against a self-ID policy.

So, until we get some legal clarity, workplaces are probably trying to just avoid upsetting the loudest or most litigious contingent in their workforce. You don’t know who your Sandie Peggie’s are until they’re backed into a corner. But if you’ve got some Dr Upton’s, perhaps that’s why employers are making policy a certain way.

I’m not saying I think that’s right by the way, but if the aim is to limit risk of being sued where the law is presently unclear, you need to try and appease the people most likely to sue you.

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