NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

this fantasy of 'passing' is unrealistic, unlikely and any sense of success is more commonly going to be those around you lying out of pity or compassion

or FEAR

I'd also add to the pp's ideas (pity, compassion, fear) the motive of 'power play', which can be performed by women over other women. Some of the biggest power players using gender ideology to try and crush 'uncooperative' women in the trades unions and universities with which I'm familiar have been other females.

It's very sad that so many women see gender ideology as a route to the top, and harness the fear and female socialisation (pity, compassion) of other women in the workplace to accomplish this.

Schrodingers TW.
Or as my granny used to say Whinging Hatchets. Crying and poor me whilst simultaneously ready to cut someone.

We should remember that DU is a real human being, who may even some day read this thread, and be a bit careful what we say, even though we reject "be kind" when it means being unkind or worse to women. I'm concerned that Trump's attitude increases the risk that sensible people in favour of women's rights get lumped together with those who just want to jeer at people who identify as trans and who actually want to deprive them of rights, i.e. to deprive them of human rights that we all share. We need to hold the line and say what we actually think, not be polarised by reacting to stupid things other people say. I know I'm mostly preaching to the converted, but I think it's important. By all means let's comment that DU doesn't pass, if that's the case, but don't let's make it a game.

Ironcally, I believe many women support gender ideology because in its confused and conctradictory way it gives then the illusion of 'equality'. The idea of equality they have been brought up on. Equality as in everyone is the same; equal outcomes etc. ( even though in reality it simply empowers males even more)

@fanOfBen

Oh, trotting out the "be kind", fuck that and fuck him.

It is telling that the initial response to SPs complaint was to seek advice from the DEI committee not from HR or legal. DEI committees are made up principally of interested parties, in other words lobby groups.

This ^ except not just doctors
Women who are bosses are not permitted to act like one - ie provide guidance and training in good professional practice - without creating a complaint. it seems we are expected to be submissive, friendly and totally accepting of the person as they are - ignoring our role as boss and trainer. Thereby stunting the colleague's development and suppressing the whole team's performance - which then suppresses the boss' performance - resulting in confirmation bias that women aren't good bosses. Yes I am bitter about this!

Sorry I didn't mean to have a long quote.

The long term 'kindest' thing would be for Dr Upton to be delivered a short, sharp shock of the sort that would dislodge him out of his fantasy life.

I agree with @Sneezeless

To use a childish phrase: he started it.

I'm not sure Sandie will have to go before the NMC as the charges weren't serious, like stealing from patients etc. Her employer was proposing to put her on supported practice by the look of it, which is why they wanted her to switch from night to day shifts. She's been qualified for about 30 years, let's not forget, and has always worked for the same employer. Then the newly-qualifued Upton rocks up ...

I'm in.

I'm in

I'm still WFTCHTJ

@fanOfBen no. Be Kind is only ever pushed one way and is used to keep women silent and submissive.

I agree that appearance is largely irrelevant here.

I think there is an argument from JR that if you don't realize the person in the changing room with you is a man you won't be upset. But that's not true - you would just feel deceived and violated if you later found out that the person was a man. It's like saying that it's fine to have a covert camera in the changing room if you don't know it's filming you - which is obviously nonsense.

I'm in

In, no sound (or no one is talking). No one in the witness. Hair

I think Dr Upton's inept council will end up making it about his appearance, or about the concept of 'passing', herself.

Witness chair!

JR probably was trying to distract from the issue of whether a man - legally a man as no GRC - should be in a womens changing area. I doubt it really helped her case to have someone explain to a judge that whether he can tell or not women often can.

Pity and compassion are not solely female virtues and it's not feminist to persistently try and make out that they are. Allowing pity or compassion to erode womens rights is a separate issue and very much a feminist concern.

We need to start responding to these attempts at shaming by saying that actually, we don't know if you're a rapist/paedo/consumer of violent porn/upskirter/domestic abuser etc etc, and we're not going to apologise for acknowledging that. If men don't like it, that's tough. This is the reality of the world that women live in.

Yes. Particularly after what was highlighted by the Pelicot case - we just don't know. I'm certainly more wary now.

I'm in but there is a weird noise - very sci fi

The kvetching about the audio has already started!

Can anyone offer a link to nitter?