NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

Yesterday, my husband heard me say several times (out loud) 'if tw were women' then this question wouldn't even need to be asked. DU would automatically be allowed in the women's changing room'.

Isn't that a tacit acknowledgment that they are men?? 🤯

I have been wondering that too @ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews

If TW were women, they’d feel uncomfortable about their bodily differences and avoid exposing them. Women who are sensitive about their own physical imperfections don’t impose them on everyone else or require affirmation about them.

What I didn’t get was JR in questioning MF yesterday making a big play of men who identify as trans being female or women when this is set out in law.

I mean, all of us here know that 'the mantra' is a slippery slope, and that it's bullshit.

It's a case of if the Judge and the panel members all believe it, though.
What does the ETBB tell them?

Whether Dr Upton passes or not is really only relevant to whether this hearing was private or not. Therefore discussions about how he looks are pretty irrelevant now. Feminist boards shouldnt be obsessed by appearance.

I'm not well informed about "compromising patient care". Did the health authority go along with that or dismiss it? Does it not matter whether they did or not? Either way Sadie's lawyers can bring that up and may do so as they are proceeding against Dr Upton for harassment.

Interesting contrast here between the quoted post and this take, which has been the wider assumption:

“It is so so interesting that part of the basis for request for anonymity was a belief that DU was 'passing' as a woman and that others were not widely aware this was a 'TW'.”

I believe Sandie Peggie has stated that when she first met Dr Upton, she believed he was a man. I note that statement made about Dr Upton was that most people didn’t know the doctor was a transwoman, which leaves either as a possibility.

It strikes me that any man who knows perfectly well that they are regularly recognized as male and finds it useful that nobody knows they are claiming to be a transwoman, but also asks for access to women’s spaces, would be a very cynical individual indeed.

Not always true in my experience. I knew a young woman with a congenitally malformed hand, and she struggled to accept it to the extent that she was constantly drawing attention to it.

I might well have done the same; I hope she was able to come to terms with it. You could say that she had made her hand into her identity.

But I accept that you were probably thinking about something a bit different in terms of bodily differences.

It's not women making it about appearance. Most women want single sex no exceptions. Single sex for the masculine looking women and trans identifying females, single sex for all the men, every single one of them.

It's men making it about appearance, every single time. They force this upon women as with so many other things.

What should have happened was as soon as SP complained, Upton got his own sparkly gender neutral changing and the women's remained single sex. Yet here we are. Why are we here? It can only be about abuse of females, female submission and male domination. Because a gender based changing room would sure as hell have cost less than this.

JR did not consider it only relevant to whether the hearing was in private or not. SP was badgered at length in her cross examination over her ability to identify sex of men who identify as women and therefore how well men may pass.

What should have happened was as soon as SP complained, Upton got his own sparkly gender neutral changing and the women's remained single sex.

What should have happened is Upton got offered his own space before it was necessary for SP to complain or nurses made to feel uncomfortable.

yes - under the EA accomodations are supposed to be pre-emptory
NHS Fife should have reasonably anticipated the changing room would be a problem and made arrangements in advance. Then not ignored SP when she sought their advice. It is an obvious failure on the employer's part - they say SP broke policy - but it seems obvious to a good number of people that the policy was nonsense and probably illegal

For anyone joining the conference for the first time, choose Observer during the joining process. Also, have in mind that a number of people have had problems joining and/or getting proper functionality with Firefox. Apparently, Chrome is the most reliable browser to use.

This is complete fantasy.

Yes, both PP are right, NHS fife should have accommodated all protected characteristics from the start and not discriminated in favour of only one. But given they did, once there were lots of women waiting in the corridor at that point they could have rectified their discriminatory position, but didn't.

We should have a sweepstake on how long WFTCHTJ will go on today. I'll bet we'll be in at 10:13.

10.35. What do we win?

I shall be lurking today as well! I've got a busy day so I'll be listening as much as I can but I'll probably end up catching up via tribunal tweets!

How do you think the NHS Fife risk register is looking right now?

I think we've gone as far as could ever have been imagined into "negative local and wider national press" and beyond.

The reputational damage is unimaginable - why was this hot properly considered?

The completely illogical logic of TRAs strikes again.

True but it's the reality of supervising junior doctors.

Back in the day my supervisor gave me a few home truths about my behaviour and expected me to pull my socks up.

Years later when I had an utterly useless trainee I suggested some things they needed to improve and they went straight to the deanery and accused me of bullying.

Result was I never suggested anything to them again and they left as useless as when they arrived.

the right to use a corresponding nn?

I reckon the first 5 minute break will actually be 17 minutes.

My take, FWIW, is that this particular individual's appearance is a distraction from the actual issue. IMO the issue is that if society is to have single-sex spaces, they should be single-sex. If members of the opposite sex, regardless of appearance, are admitted to said spaces, they by definition become mixed-sex.

I am aware that this individual's side have themselves taken great pains to make it about appearance. I presume this is because they themselves want the distraction from the actual issue so that everybody is focussed on this single situation. It is because I consider this individual's appearance to be a distraction, that I find discussion of such to be unhelpful.

But I absolutely do get why people feel it is of interest.