NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

I think we should avoid commenting on appearance for two reasons. Firstly it will make it harder to have cases like these in public in future - individuals and organisations will be able to argue for privacy and these cases need sunlight.

Secondly whether he passes is irrelevant - he's biologically male and he shouldn't be in a single sex female space

What time is kick off this morning?

I find myself having brief moments of sympathy for Dr Upton.

Flippin' female socialisation.

And then I remember that as part of his grievance he accused her of compromising patient care. It is the first time in 30 years that someone has raised that against her and is a devastating allegation. My understanding is that whatever happens in this case she will still have to go before the NMC as a result of that.

Mocking him is not on

Actually, I am not sure I am right to have said this. Better to say ‘not helpful in the context of the tribunal so best avoided on this thread’. But more generally I think being able to mock men who demanding others pretend they are women based on clothes, long hair and lipstick is important. Thinking of Ricky Gervais.

Oh that is awful! A professional practice hearing on top of this?
And they say she is vexatious?
Ok sympathy waning here. I am clearly not in posession of all the facts

I agree but men don't think that. The court has already effectively ruled whether or not he passes is relevant. The problem is 'passing' for men and 'passing' for women (biological females) is different. Most women can tell a biological man from quite a distance (gait / hip to shoulder ratio / relative pelvic width) no matter the cosmetics or dress. I think it's an innate evolutionary instinct.

Most judges are men and the judiciary is inherently patriarchal. Sadly, women's rights are in the shitter in Scotland. It shouldn't even get to whether or not he's a womanly enough man. No men in the women's full stop. Single sex is single sex. No one's stopping any employer being 'inclusive' by having some gender-based changing rooms as well.

But unfortunately for a lot of men they assume their perceptions are more important than any woman's perceptions and they can't tell sex as well as women and so here we are. It shouldn't actually matter what the panel think about how womanly Upton is - the fact is plenty of female nurses were waiting out in the corridor instead of getting on with their jobs and getting changed. They all see him as male.

We should be able to discuss ALL aspects of the tribunal deliberations.

That’s tragic, @Hermyknee

I have a lot of neurodiverse colleagues and family members. They are often slow to intuit someone else’s perspective. They can be matter of fact in dismissing things that are important to others because they are objectively not that important.

None of them would target another colleague as a result of the misunderstanding. It’s not unlikely Dr Upton is both ND and badly behaved.

Exactly. Beth can get tae fuck.

My understanding is that whatever happens in this case she will still have to go before the NMC as a result of that

I have read this too. It’s shameful.

Can we write to the GMC about the compromising of patient care that happens when everyone is lying about sex (using wrong sex pronouns for Dr Upton) in front of patients who may therefore not have a reasonable chance to consent to being treated by an opposite sex doctor?

The invention of the word micro aggression really hasn't helped Dr Upton. Or going through a university/online experience that was wholly validating.

I've worked with a FTM doctor and MTF nurse, both late transitioned.

Both knew perfectly well they didn't pass, didn't expect to share a changing room, weren't offended if a patient didn't want to see them and knew people wouldn't get pronouns right all of the time.

And importantly both were excellent HCPs and colleagues.

But that was before TRAs kicked in and we were all expected to deny reality.

I think the tribunal were considering how well DU passes in the context of the request for the Tribunal to be heard in private.

His team's request for privacy was that open justice would 'out' DU as a TW and the counter argument (which the panel agreed with) was that DU is widely seen by patients and staff as either a man or a TW- the evidence for this provided by DU themselves in reporting microaggressions and misgendering - and therefore being 'outed' was not a realistic concern.

He's certainly not playing nicely.
Or demonstrating the socialisation/deference expected of a woman while expecting to be treated as a woman

In Gavin de Becker’s book the Gift of Fear he is very clear that women should ignore their socialisation and trust their instincts. He also highlights a key red flag as males who push boundaries who don’t take you seriously when you say no.

Then NHS Fife suspends a women who listens to her instincts and says no to a boundary pushing male. It is the complete opposite of what they should have done it they actually cared about female staff. It makes me so angry. We are not support humans for men.

"His legal case is that he's a woman and it's distressing for him to be told that he's a man, even if it is true, and any woman who calls him a man should lose their job. But his own (female) lawyer still referred to him as a man SIX TIMES at the hearing." RIPX4NUTMEG.

I think we all miss the normal transsexuals. It must be devastating for them to have their identities taken over by such an extreme abusive, misogynistic ideology.

The bigger issue here is that Dr Upton expects SP and all colleagues and presumably patients too to submit to his version of reality over and above theirs. It's abusive.

As noted above, you can be a transsexual whilst recognising the facts of biological reality and respecting others' needs. Human relations are built around mutual respect and nowhere should this be stronger than in medicine. Yet here we are.

It also came up in the badgering of SP by JR about men using the Changing room.

I was wondering that. If I had a religious preference to be treated by a woman and Dr Upton was presented to me, would I be accused of being a bigot and harrassment if I would not give consent? It's the same issue as the Sandie in the changing room

I'd like Gavin de Becker to come in as expert witness on safeguarding in relation to sex deception in one of these cases.

Dr Upton's demands are a huge safeguarding failure for patient care.

yes to all this

JR yesterday brought up SP's husband's facebook page.....she'd obviously been researching beforehand....unfortunately for her, just not the most useful type of research

Quietly lurking here. Thank you all for the updates and commentary.

One thing that has always puzzled me about TRAs is how can you want to be the opposite sex and then be so aggressive about dismissing the feelings and behaviour of that sex.

OK now we know the answer is autism and/or kink.

But honestly it's only a few years ago that people appreciated saying a man is a woman is a big ask.

And interestingly is undermined by JRs own team's submissions that DU had previously experienced misgendering on several occasions.

They can't both argue that DU 'passes' and is 'successful' in their presentation as 'woman' AND that DU is anxious and vulnerable partly because they're weary from previous misgendering/being seen as a man.