NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

This is not reddit, thankfully, but some of the comments have descended to that level. Of course they may have been posted by TRAs as part of the frequent attempts to sidetrack/ undermine this board.

As for the hypocrisy we are all hoping the tribunal will find that was not OK.

I can feel pity for Dr Upton's gender distress while still feeling more sympathy for the FIFE nurses - both Sandie and the ones too afraid to speak out.

The amount of female socialisation going on here - that we should feel sorry for a man who steals our language and our spaces as if he is the victim not the aggressor.

Thank you to those who shared the preliminary hearing findings. I've just read them (making us late for the school run!) and find them fascinating!

It is so so interesting that part of the basis for request for anonymity was a belief that DU was 'passing' as a woman and that others were not widely aware this was a 'TW'. The tribunal panel found against this from the evidence that DU also complained about experiencing microaggressions such as being 'misgendered' by unwitting patients and staff.

It has been discussed so many times on this board, and in podcasts etc like Gender A Wider Lens that it is absolutely not kind of the "be kind" team, including the many professionals involved, to mislead and fail to properly discuss with those seeking 'transition' that this fantasy of 'passing' is unrealistic, unlikely and any sense of success is more commonly going to be those around you lying out of pity or compassion.

It is similar to what Glosswitch's article talks about. By 'being kind' and using 'preferred pronouns' & tolerating male bodies in female spaces for any period of time, you both add to the problem but are also open to extra criticism for dishonesty when you inevitably reach your limit or boundary and stop.

Every single bit of this could be avoided by someone being the grown up and holding the line in reality much much earlier.

From that Reddit thread…

“The question that should be asked why the fuck sex matters are in this case at all.”

The clue is in the name, you muppet.

There is a difference between "female socialisation" and just "socialisation". You are trying to suggest that empathy is bad when in fact we should be socialising males to empathise more and making the world a better place.

Feeling sympathy for someone experiencing distress is not the same as agreeing with how they - or the people around them - handle that distress. Dr Upton is still a young man in a demanding profession. He has been completely failed by his employer. The fact they failed their nurses and patients doent mean they didnt also fail him.

I struggle with sympathy for the plight of someone so lacking insight and empathy for others.

Apart from being a man, which is a specific disadvantage, requiring others to bend the world around you carries with it an innate awareness of that bending. Otherwise you wouldn’t notice its absence either. Surely it’s wilful blindness rather than simply never having had such a thing pointed out to you?

Doctors have to be “fit to practise” according to the GMC, check the document.
Is Upton fit according to their criteria?

www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/dc21132---what-we-mean-by-fitness-to-practise_pdf-104226687.pdf

Agree with this. I would hope that any posts attacking the appearance of DU would be removed if reported. Mumsnet is pretty swift on deleting inappropriate posts and hasn’t threatened us with a deletion so presumably we haven’t been very out of line. I can’t imagine why posts from this thread would be presented to the panel. What would be the objective of doing so?

While this case is going on, let’s not forget the nurses at Darlington Memorial Hospital who are suing their trust for sexual discrimination and sexual harassment after they were forced to share their changing room with a trans identified man.

After raising their concerns to HR, they were told they need to be 're-educated' and 'more inclusive'.

At an employment tribunal the nurses said the man’s behaviour changed after the HR complaint. Bethany Hutchinson said they 'started to feel quite intimidated'.

After the claim was launched a sign appeared on the door of the female changing room saying 'INCLUSIVE CHANGING ROOM'.

The nurses who complained have now been forced to change in 'temporary changing rooms' which are offices, while the trans-identifying man continues to use the female changing room.

The tribunal is scheduled to begin on 16 June and will finish on 4 July.

How many other trusts are forcing their nurses and female staff to change their clothes in the presence of men?

Dayumm, Glosswitch is always good but that piece is fucking brilliant.

I note the pleas for compassion for Upton, but it seems to me that Upton is either:

1. A Lia Thomas-type entitled cheat, in which case FAFO enjoy the Streisand Effect - or
2. Far too delusional and unwell to practice as a doctor. In which case treatment and retraining is needed, not a free pass into the women's fucking changing room.

Dr Upton is a privileged adult male with an employer who has set his wants above the needs of female staff. Who was told he was causing a woman distress and ignored that distress and placed his own desires above her needs. A man who demands others to lie to pretend he is something he is not - not only at work but also in tribunal.

As for actual motivation; we know a common reason men are motivated to behave like this is sexual (AGP), we do not know if this is Dr Upton’s motivation but we do not know it is not.

I stopped having any sympathy for this man when he started leveraging people's sympathy to support his trampling of the nurse Peggy' boundaries.

He's not acting in a vacuum; as others have said, his actions have consequences.

Sympathy, like other emotions, affects and drives people's actions.

It's sympathy that has allowed his behaviour that has led to this case.

totally agree with this!

For those of you on twitter, I am finding the tweets from Dr Michael Foran really helpful.
He was at the court yesterday,.

Also as an aside, I saw that three swimmers from Penn are suing the Ivy League and the NCAA for allowing a male (William “Lia” Thomas) to be in their changing room while they were completely nude.

t has been discussed so many times on this board, and in podcasts etc like Gender A Wider Lens that it is absolutely not kind of the "be kind" team, including the many professionals involved, to mislead and fail to properly discuss with those seeking 'transition' that this fantasy of 'passing' is unrealistic, unlikely and any sense of success is more commonly going to be those around you lying out of pity or compassion. or FEAR

Many, many women lie out of fear. Fear of being in an enclosed space with a very narcissistic man looking for the tiniest slight (e.g. whether your eye contact or gaze is sufficiently subservient / terrified) who might get violent. Fear of losing your job and income and plunging yourself and your children into poverty.

Most women, I'd guess, lie out of fear.

There's a reason we choose the bear.

i can't find the post now but a PP suggested a thought experiment of men have to share a changing room with snakes. Most of them will be non-venemous and completely harmless, but the same percentage as men are violent / sexual predators against women (noting this is greater than the crime statistics as crimes such as indecent exposure often go unreported) are venomous.

I really think this would concentrate minds a lot more. Any man arguing a women has to share with men has to share with snakes, a tiny number of which are venemous. You can't immediately tell which. Sounds about fair to me.

A reminder that whether or not Dr Upton passed was part of the tribunal proceedings in determining whether he should remain anonymous. Mocking him is not on, but discussing whether he passes has been already been considered relevant by the tribunal so we absolutely should be able to discuss that. As is discussing the relevance of it to changing rooms when if Dr Upton is allowed to destroy a female space so too is a 6’6”” hairy brute of a man in men’s clothes.

I've had my morning client cancel, so I'm unexpectedly free and I've just requested access. Is it usually fairly quick to arrive?
Thank you all for the commentary. Horrific to see what Nurse Peggie has been put through.

It's sympathy from those in positions of power, perhaps (if they're not getting high off the bullying and making women be subservient) but it's fear from those without power, predominantly, I'd guess.

As Sandie Peggie pointed out when JR in mid harangue asked why other nurses hadn't complained formally, (I paraphrase) given where i am now, it's not surprising is it? Most people would have been crying at the end of the nasty character attacks by JR of SP and her family members. It was highly unpleasant as was the childishly deliberate mispronounciation of Maya's name.

I note that Maya did not wilt in distress at the misnaming.

I hope JR's aggressive tactics will prove counter-productive, though you never know with judges. I assume the deliberate mispronunciation of Maya's name was an attempt to provoke her into a reaction. Unfortunately for JR, the one thing she would know if she'd followed Maya over the past five years is that she is absolutely steely calm under pressure. She simply does not rise to provocation.

Like all other human qualities there is a bell curve of abilities. That includes mindblindness which affects our ability to see from the perspective of others and it impacts on empathic abilities. Some people have reduced emotional empathy skills but can still cognitively/intellectually understand, but it is usually slower and experienced by others as less satisfactory. Given that gender dysphoria and neurodiversity have a big crossover, I am not surprised when I see such vitriol and lack of empathy from many on the trans side of the debate.

However in the end we humans spend a lot of our time upsetting each other and it's often due to lack of information and us assuming things about the others' intentions. Mostly people are not horrible. Dr U probably thought this was an attack on his person/identity because he is primed to expect that from past experience hence he assumes harrassment. SP (had a personal need which most other women would have understood/accomodated) but is primed to expect problems from a male in a female-only changing room so she also assumes harrassment. The failure here is with Fife NHS - firstly putting them both in that situation and then secondly when SP asked for help ignoring her request and then advising her to "speak to Upton" herself. What a mess!

I requested access this morning, Traybake, and the login has just arrived - fingers crossed they are equally efficient for you!

Yes it's very important to remember this.

Let's hope for a favourable outcome for SP, as well as these nurses who have been ostracised from their very own single sex space.

But also surely converting offices into a temporary changing room demonstrates that this service can offer single sex facilities as well as additional facilities for trans identifying individuals and therefore are in breach of the law. They've basically stabbed themselves in the foot by converting an office because they can no longer say they do not have the capacity to ensure single sex spaces are preserved as well as offering alternatives as there is capacity and they are just misusing their facilities for the purpose of sex discrimination.

I struggle with sympathy for the plight of someone so lacking insight and empathy for others.

I mean, maybe if he had some sort of cognitive impairment. But this is someone who is apparently deemed competent of being a doctor. And treating patients!

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a doctor to be able to grasp the concepts here.

If the claim is "trans-identified males have weird ideas they pick up from their peer groups that make them abuse women" then employers choosing to take them on - sympathetically - have a responsibility to make sure they get training in this area, and don't let them run amok.

As has been discussed previously - I'm not convinced that the sort of genderist beliefs exhibited by Upton and encouraged by the hospital here are Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society. And this case is rather reinforcing that.

Women have been coerced to stay silent with threats to livelihood and threats to socially shun.

It was always going to end up in cases like this, because it will never be enough, until TW have taken every sporting medal, Oscar and safe space allocated to women and until everyone agrees to have sex with them as women and praise them as the most beautiful and womanly.

They were always going to push until women broke and there was a backlash and he we are.

I agree with PPs that it’s demanding in A&E. It’s the first time I saw someone die and someone already dead. Unfortunately I have spent days waiting in A&E at various times. Tip: avoid December and January especially Friday and Saturday nights.

A&E is a place where reality, facts and putting trust in a doctor is paramount. There are times when there’s little dignity too - I have seen old men masturbating, young girls screaming with slit wrists, trod in wee from an old man who was crying as he had failed to get anyone to take him to the loo, and given cups of water to a row of dehydrated elderly women patients lining a corridor as there’s no nurses free. The latter all appeared to be exhibiting dementia like behaviour which was possibly down to utis. It resembled a war zone on tv.

I would suggest, kindly, that if he wants everyone around him to suspend reality for him and (if I have got this right) has to take two months off because he was upset about a changing room discussion, then he is in the wrong job. Maybe Fife A&E is very different and is calm and orderly at all times?