NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

Yes that's the bit where JR seems to be saying that the academic research that Maya quotes can't be right, because there are American media articles that contradict it. And then asking Maya questions about US law.

So yes, Maya isn't a biologist OR a lawyer. But she had a better grasp of the issues than JR

Unless JR was playing it for her client and knew damn well the issues

But of Upton is a woman, then his upset shouldn't count either. As he didn't fear rape.

Unless JR was playing it for her client and knew damn well the issues

I take this back, she would never have put forward that line of questioning if she knew the facts, too dangerous and fetish-outing all 'round

If a judge is saying something like, "I'm not sure this line of questioning assists the tribunal with the issues it has to determine...." that usually means, "can we move on from this irrelevant nonsense?"

When told misgendering was offensive, she could have said ‘I find your constant derogatory mispronunciation of my name offensive, but I am surviving’

Dr Upton clearly isn't a fragile vulnerable transwoman who just wants to quietly get on with his life despite whatever internal feelings of "womanliness" he thinks he has.

If he was, he wouldn't be continuing to change in a female changing room when he knows it causes distress to at least one woman there.

I'm a woman, and truly if one of my colleagues was for whatever reason was distressed/scared by my presence in a changing room, I'd make sure she could come to some arrangement so she could use it when I wasn't there.

Yes, if Upton was being seen as a woman, his concerns would be dismissed like Sandie's were.

JR Saying we must stop trans ppl is rather ominous?
JR [reads prev statement HJ said]
MF No I don't agree
J What do you mean
MF She means keeping down number of ppl who transition and this was to do with rapid increase in young ppl transitioning and taking one sentence from that and saying ominous when what she was saying was
Prefigured what Dr Hilary Cass said and harm of puberty blockers. I don't think that makes it ominous
JR I used the shorthand in my Q bc u agreed with me that she said she must stop ppl transitioning
MF Sorry what?

Maya's "Sorry, what?!" is pretty much my response to the whole afternoon!

He is here because he has given a witness statement in support of his wife and JR wants to be able to dispute whatever he has said in that statement.

When told misgendering was offensive, she could have said ‘I find your constant derogatory mispronunciation of my name offensive, but I am surviving’

I would have corrected her so it would go on the record that she was mispronuncing my name. If she failed to stop doing it it would obviously come across as deliberate and petty which I imagine it is

She said ‘we must reduce the number of smokers’, that is rather ominous isn’t it?

Exactly. JR's arguments were basically everything on my bingo card, just missing clownfish sadly.

If NC were a bitch like me, she'd start with 'I just want to ensure I'm pronouncing the witness's name correctly', then crack on with her job, leaving that thought there.

But it's petty, and she's better than that.

Persistently mispronounced someone's name is harassment.

I've only just realised that Sandie is from Kirkcaldy. Had an ex from there, when I was a med student. I was very much his bit of posh.

Am now 99.9% sure this is a class issue between Sandie, a no nonsense A+E nurse and a young doctor of limited life experience who has spent too much time on line and is used to deference.

Exactly.

TRAs play both sides against the middle. One minute it's a medical condition, that needs treatment, the next, it's a question of civil rights.

Reducing the number of people with a medical condition that requires treatment is obviously a good thing. But it fucks up the civil rights argument.

You'd think a bloody barrister, with all the critical thinking, logic, and stone cold facts, would suss this out

If JR is going to set herself up as an expert in this field, she's going to have to get a lot better at it.

Frankly, not something I think is the slightest bit possible. TRAs are wrong and it will never change.

It wouldn't surprise me if she started to represent completely different issues after this tribunal. She's on a hiding to nothing.

True, if you repeatedly did that with a colleague's name, particularly of a different ethnic origin, your arse would be in HR faster than Concorde. And rightly so.

I hope this case brings more attention to the fact that doctors can have their General Medical Council registration marker changed to the wrong sex marker.

Dr Upton is now on the GMC register as a female.

There are so many implications.

Or when given the opportunity to cross examine MF after JR had finished her ask: “How do you pronounce your name?”

There is a cupboard Dr Upton could use to change in. If Dr Upton really experiences gender dysphoria you would think he'd prefer to change there. In a female changing room he will be constantly reminded that his body, whatever he does to it, is not female and never will be. You would expect that to be more upsetting than using a cupboard to change.

If he was a woman and his colleagues didnt want to enter the changing room when he was there he'd change in that cupboard.

JR wants Maya ignored as not an expert and to dismiss other witnesses as transphobic.

Women are not normally required to change in front of men because they find it embarrassing. They dont have to be in fear of their life. When my OH last had a medical exam the male doctor pulled a curtain around so I, his wife, wouldnt see. I've seen my husband undressed many a time but the male doctor still pulled the curtain as a matter of routine. My husband doesnt expect me to rape him and he's not scared of me but JR wants to claim a woman is not allowed to object to a man in her changing room unless she's scared.

NC will have submitted her legal arguments as to why there is unlawful discrimination against the claimant.

The submissions are the meat and potatoes of this case.

NC will be scrutinising the rational of the defendants and the veracity of the evidence the defence relied upon in their actions, in terms of wether it was consistent with policy and procedure.

She will also be looking to expose any bias and commitment to ideology over reality in her cross examinations, not to mention the truthfulness or otherwise of Dr Upton, who cannot duck out of appearing because he is named as a defendant.

So the fireworks will begin tomorrow.

As was the case in ERCC i suspect she will be shooting ducks in a barrel.

Is it still going?

https://x.com/Rebeccasaysno/status/1754487331074056338

FOI requests last year showed 78 doctors registered as the opposite sex.

I've been present for most of today's hearing, had to miss pt 2 this afternoon due to school run, but reading TT it all seems even more bonkers than listening to it live.

(Why is JR so obsessed with Sandie being 'scared'?)