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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #3

1000 replies

nauticant · 05/02/2025 12:27

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
kiterunning · 05/02/2025 16:27

Maya, you are totally totally totally 💯 amazing!

Rightsraptor · 05/02/2025 16:27

No, @Chrysanthemum5 , we're back tomorrow at 10am

Chrysanthemum5 · 05/02/2025 16:28

Thanks I was just out of a meeting so wondered if it would be worth joining again.

See you all tomorrow morning!

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:29

anyolddinosaur · 05/02/2025 16:24

There is a cupboard Dr Upton could use to change in. If Dr Upton really experiences gender dysphoria you would think he'd prefer to change there. In a female changing room he will be constantly reminded that his body, whatever he does to it, is not female and never will be. You would expect that to be more upsetting than using a cupboard to change.

If he was a woman and his colleagues didnt want to enter the changing room when he was there he'd change in that cupboard.

JR wants Maya ignored as not an expert and to dismiss other witnesses as transphobic.

Women are not normally required to change in front of men because they find it embarrassing. They dont have to be in fear of their life. When my OH last had a medical exam the male doctor pulled a curtain around so I, his wife, wouldnt see. I've seen my husband undressed many a time but the male doctor still pulled the curtain as a matter of routine. My husband doesnt expect me to rape him and he's not scared of me but JR wants to claim a woman is not allowed to object to a man in her changing room unless she's scared.

But previous examples have shown that the women have to use the cupboard.

anyolddinosaur · 05/02/2025 16:30

If I had Maya's calm I'd probably have said you are consistently mispronouncing my name and as you are arguing that misnaming Dr Upton would be offensive I wonder if you mean to offend.

EasternStandard · 05/02/2025 16:30

I'm not following this closely but interesting to read posts.

It's incredible

WearyAuldWumman · 05/02/2025 16:30

AnnaMagnani · 05/02/2025 16:18

I've only just realised that Sandie is from Kirkcaldy. Had an ex from there, when I was a med student. I was very much his bit of posh.

Am now 99.9% sure this is a class issue between Sandie, a no nonsense A+E nurse and a young doctor of limited life experience who has spent too much time on line and is used to deference.

I agree, but I'm smiling to myself...

I was brought up in a Fife coalmining town. When my cousin and his wife moved to Kirkcaldy, my late mum told them that they'd moved up in the world. It was years before I realised that the "nice" middle class areas that you see as the local buses drive into Kirkcaldy are the exception rather than the norm.

anyolddinosaur · 05/02/2025 16:32

It's not just that one woman is expected to use the cupboard, it's any unhappy woman being expected to use the cupboard and then defend doing so against accusations of transphobia.

TWETMIRF · 05/02/2025 16:33

Kirkcaldy is linoleum to me, know nothing else about it. Am I right that the pronunciation is Kircoddy?

Harassedevictee · 05/02/2025 16:33

Rightsraptor · 05/02/2025 16:27

I've been present for most of today's hearing, had to miss pt 2 this afternoon due to school run, but reading TT it all seems even more bonkers than listening to it live.

(Why is JR so obsessed with Sandie being 'scared'?)

Because DU is going to say they were scared. I think JR is going to try to show DU was more intimidated, upset, scared than SP was.

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:34

And of course if all the women start using the cupboard, not the female changing room, Dr Upton would want to use the cupboard too.

TWETMIRF · 05/02/2025 16:37

For most people you would think that a women's changing room is a single sex space. What NHS Fife did wrong was not changing the sign to say women of both sexes

DemeraraAbyss · 05/02/2025 16:39

TWETMIRF · 05/02/2025 16:33

Kirkcaldy is linoleum to me, know nothing else about it. Am I right that the pronunciation is Kircoddy?

Gordon Brown (ex PM) grew up and went to school in Kirkcaldy.

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:39

Harassedevictee · 05/02/2025 16:33

Because DU is going to say they were scared. I think JR is going to try to show DU was more intimidated, upset, scared than SP was.

Show quote history

Oh DU is definitely going to show up being wimbly and upset. More than SP was under questioning. And therefore more vulnerable.

Which is bullshit.

I expect an emotional support animal and a mother.

TWETMIRF · 05/02/2025 16:40

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:34

And of course if all the women start using the cupboard, not the female changing room, Dr Upton would want to use the cupboard too.

If the women were outside the entrance of the hospital changing in full view of everyone he'd insist on being there too. Not sure he'd get the validation he wants that way though

lcakethereforeIam · 05/02/2025 16:41

AnnaMagnani · 05/02/2025 16:18

I've only just realised that Sandie is from Kirkcaldy. Had an ex from there, when I was a med student. I was very much his bit of posh.

Am now 99.9% sure this is a class issue between Sandie, a no nonsense A+E nurse and a young doctor of limited life experience who has spent too much time on line and is used to deference.

Wouldn't surprise me. Not so much don't you know who I am although he could probably do with some help there as don't you know who you are?

TWETMIRF · 05/02/2025 16:43

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:39

Oh DU is definitely going to show up being wimbly and upset. More than SP was under questioning. And therefore more vulnerable.

Which is bullshit.

I expect an emotional support animal and a mother.

Show quote history

I expect him to put on his best frail, timid, womanly voice. If the sound has been crap up til now, it will be worse when he's talking. It will be interesting to see how long he can keep it up before forgetting and talking in his normal manly voice.

BeaTwix · 05/02/2025 16:44

I used to code switch when working in Fife.

It was often the only way to be understood by the punters!

(Not a fifer, but related to a lot of them!).

Best Fife story -
My own elderly relative complaining of headache.
Me into doctor mode "oh, where is your headache?"
Elderly relative looks at me astonished & somewhat dumbfounded that so many years of expensive education partially funded by them could have produced such a stupid question "in ma heid, Bea, in ma heid".

ProudFriend · 05/02/2025 16:45

I have been engrossed by this thread for the last few days. I just wanted to say how proud I am that I can call NC a friend. It is amazing to see people you know in one context be extraordinary in another.

FarriersGirl · 05/02/2025 16:46

Gosh I have enjoyed this thread, I have dipped in and out all day today and its been quite an eye opener👀Thank you to all those able to dial in and keep us up to speed.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 05/02/2025 16:48

Thank-you all for keeping us up-to-date during a working day. I feel I was there!

AlexandraLeaving · 05/02/2025 16:51

Boiledbeetle · 05/02/2025 15:45

There's a lot of us on here!

Show quote history

Another Fifer here. 👋
We get everywhere.

Thank you to everyone for keeping the thread full of ongoings at the hearing for those of us not able to tune in live.

Datun · 05/02/2025 16:56

anyolddinosaur · 05/02/2025 16:24

There is a cupboard Dr Upton could use to change in. If Dr Upton really experiences gender dysphoria you would think he'd prefer to change there. In a female changing room he will be constantly reminded that his body, whatever he does to it, is not female and never will be. You would expect that to be more upsetting than using a cupboard to change.

If he was a woman and his colleagues didnt want to enter the changing room when he was there he'd change in that cupboard.

JR wants Maya ignored as not an expert and to dismiss other witnesses as transphobic.

Women are not normally required to change in front of men because they find it embarrassing. They dont have to be in fear of their life. When my OH last had a medical exam the male doctor pulled a curtain around so I, his wife, wouldnt see. I've seen my husband undressed many a time but the male doctor still pulled the curtain as a matter of routine. My husband doesnt expect me to rape him and he's not scared of me but JR wants to claim a woman is not allowed to object to a man in her changing room unless she's scared.

That would be a good question to ask Upton, whether he uses a curtain for privacy, and is that because he thinks the patient is frightened he'll rape them

PriOn1 · 05/02/2025 16:57

murasaki · 05/02/2025 16:39

Oh DU is definitely going to show up being wimbly and upset. More than SP was under questioning. And therefore more vulnerable.

Which is bullshit.

I expect an emotional support animal and a mother.

Show quote history

Unless the good doctor is a superb actor, or looks convincingly female, this is an incredibly risky tactic.

All very well for transactivists to claim MtF transitioners are terribly scared of being challenged, but anyone faced with a man claiming he was scared of a small, slim woman (I don’t know how tall she is, but she doesn’t look imposing from her photos) is likely to be somewhat sceptical, I suspect.

And, of course, his reply that he had as much right to be there as she does isn’t indicative of fear. Someone genuinely afraid would not stop and get changed, but would leave and return when the person they were afraid of left, as Sandie Peggie did, except when faced with the position of really needing to use that space immediately.

Cailleach1 · 05/02/2025 17:00

anyolddinosaur · 05/02/2025 16:32

It's not just that one woman is expected to use the cupboard, it's any unhappy woman being expected to use the cupboard and then defend doing so against accusations of transphobia.

Yep, I’d imagine you’d get ‘written up’ for using the cupboard.

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