Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

I think it's worth following this thread a little. Because it seems like there are a lot of people who think the idea that the Republicans or Trump might actually be looking at the kinds of policies that the working class like, and benefit from, is just smoke and mirrors - they are being bamboozled.

It is undoubtedly true that there are still plenty of neoconservative free trade types in the Republican Party - though important to note, these people are currently quite dominant in the mainstream left wing parties too. Must and the tech billionaires fall into this category, and their influence is something to watch, for sure.

But the old style working class economics, which would at one time have been leftist (NOT Marxist)! is today having a significant resurgence in conservative thought - not on the left. This is where you can, if you bother to read those kinds of publications, or listen to their discourse, find discussion of these issues. Not just as a kind of rehash, but people working them out in light of the wider economic environment right now.

I'm going to post an article on Vance, who also represents this particular group, which gives I think a quite good outline of some of the factions within conservatism now who are hashing these things out. Frankly, for anyone really keen on old style left politics, the US government is closer to that now, to enacting those kinds of policies, than it ever was under Obama or the Clintons.

Personally I think it might be wise to avoid pushing Trump in the direction of the tech bros, and cultivate other points of view.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2022/01/04/jd-vance-hillbilly-elegy-radicalization/

@leftorrightnow do you think that homophobia is unrelate to transphobia?

They're related inasmuch as they are diametrically opposed. The trans-rights, genderist project is by definition homophobic. Homophobia is one of genderism's three legs, the others being misogyny and the imposition of sex-role stereotypes.

Related as 'up' and 'down' are related.

You are summarizing responses to different posts and of course when presented like that it appears confusing.

to be clear:

indigenous peoples have had a two spirit category referring to people who feel like they are both male and female, thus two spirit. These people can have either make or female biological sex but feel that they are not any of the genders.
here is the full definition from the Indian health service:

Traditionally, Native American Two-Spirit people were male, female, and sometimes intersexed individuals who combined activities of both men and women with traits unique to their status as Two-Spirit people. In most tribes, they were considered neither men nor women; they occupied a distinct, alternative gender status.

yes I have argued that calling out the stereotypical performance of gender of transpeople is in fact just some kind of weird trick to hide transphobia . Other people have referred “men dressing as women” and I assume by this they mean men dressing as stereotypical women (or in heels and dresses, not in jeans and converse). I absolutely stand by that opinion.

on who transpeople are I think it depends on the individual. If someone has had hormone therapy and a lot of surgery, can you still be called a man? I get the problem with self identification. It’s tricky, what is your take in this? Do you think no one is ever allowed to change gender, it should simply be illegal? How can you take such ownership over other peoples bodies?

and yes I’ve questioned how you’d plan to enforce a rule against transgender women using women’s toilets. You didn’t answer? My point is that the only reason to prevent it would surely be to prevent someone dangerous to be in women’s toilets, is that correct? Because if you just won’t let transgender women use women’s toilets just because they don’t have female genitalia, despite them being totally harmless (which the vast majority is) then that would surely be transphobia?

by mixed sex toilets I mean we don’t mean to turn ALL toilets into mixed sex toilets. We can still have men and women’s toilets AND third spaces.

feel free to ask me if anything else is unclear?

In summary, "When you write down what I posted, it looks confusing"

Yup

yea if you take things out of context, it’s usually confusing. I have provided a comprehensive response and clarification to you above, fee free to respond and ask if further clarification is needed

I think you’ll find that they gay and transgender communities view this quite differently. Funny that, since it’s about them.

@DeanElderberry
Yep.
Can I just point out that homophobia is an interesting charge to try and level at Trump given his favourite song is YMCA by The Village People. If he's homophobic maybe someone should tell him? He's going to be utterly devastated when he finds out. He even appeared on stage with them Sunday night before the inauguration while they performed the song live. He doesn't know the moves, so he just did his little Trump wiggle dance. Link to video at end of this post.

Homophobia has nothing to do with transphobia apart from they share the same last six letters. Being same sex attracted has nothing to do with believing you were born in the wrong body. But we all know why the two are conflated. Forced teaming. Homosexuals get no say in the matter, they are being used as props/a shield "You don't want men in women's bathrooms! Why are you so homophobic?" It's a non sequiter and even the people who use the tactic know it's false, but what else have they got? If you truly care about homosexuals stop using them.
Link to Trump wiggling to The Village People live on stage.

Still not a single person has told me how you’d ever enforce a rule against transgender women in women’s toilets

audio on my previous post muted for copyright
link with full audio
k

Enforce? Is it so difficult for men to respect women's boundaries that we need to enforce them?

MN is lagging horrendously for me atm so I'm probably late to the party however I didn't want to let this bit get missed for any lurkers. Left needn't reply.

If you’re facing a threat, it’s normal to be afraid. Not being afraid shows you don’t understand the dangers?
This is what the TRAs and #bekind brigade consistently refuse to see or acknowledge. Dangerous men do not have a sign saying they are not to be trusted, rapists don't have klaxons blaring, so how can we tell who is dangerous and who is not? It is safer to keep ALL men out of single sex areas, whether they wear dresses or say they are girls/cats/babies or have had wrong sex hormones or surgery. Women are justifiably afraid of strange random men especially those who seek to blur boundaries. One woman harmed is one too many.

If you’re facing a threat, it’s normal to be afraid. Not being afraid shows you don’t understand the dangers?

Please care to explain yourself rather than just provide negative personal commentary

some of what Trump says is directed at the working class and is all about kick out the immigrants and build factories again etc. so yes it speaks to the right wing working class.

when you look at his statements overall, a lot of it is nonsense though. He wants to create a state of national emergency at the southern border (declaring cartels terror at groups so they can be shot ant now point blank and wonder if they’re going to shot first and ask later to see ID) and take back the Panama Canal. Yet he wants to be a “peacemaker and a unifier”. Yes, he actually said those things in the very same speech.

both working class and affluent people fall for his populist nonsense.

“Men” - you mean transgender women? Ie men who want to be women? And present like women? Has it occurred to you most transgender women aren’t out to bother you but just want to get on with their lives and not be harassed by men? No one has of yet given a single suggestion as to HOW transgender people can be provided with safe spaces? Is that because you all think they shouldn’t have any?

Shame? Most men would be ashamed to go in women's toilets. That just how it works. It's self policing for most people plus a bit of healthy public shaming for those who try not to conform. Sounds fair enough to me.

Third spaces

It's been suggested for years by women on this board and the general response from TRAs is to call women transphobic for suggesting it

What are the patterns?
I pasted this once but will do it again because seems some are building a false narrative of black voters moving to the right

According to AP VoteCast, 16 percent of Black voters supported Trump in 2024, up from 8 percent in 2020. In comparison, 83 percent of Black voters supported Kamala Harris, down from the 91 percent who supported Joe Biden in 2020.
Democrats also lost ground among Latino voters, with 56 percent voting for Harris in 2024 compared to 63 percent for Biden in 2020. Trump's support grew from 35 percent in 2020 to 42 percent in 2024.
There was a gender gap in 2024's voting preferences: Trump won support from 24 percent of Black men versus 9 percent of Black women, 47 percent of Latino men versus 38 percent of Latino women, and 59 percent of white men versus 53 percent of white women.

83 percent of black voters for Harris? Yes it’s down from 90 for Biden but that’s still an overwhelming majority of black voters for Harris.

56 percent of Latino voters for Harris

there are small percentage moves from these groups towards Trump but it will have to be higher numbers/and or sustained in the next election to be statistically significant

there is no data on income level and voting that I’ve been able to find or have seen, but perhaps you’ve seen some? This is not a rhetorical question, genuinely interested to see such data

overall I think Harris just did badly. I’d the democrats get a better candidate next time we will see a return to more classic voting patterns (classic of recent time, not talking going back to the civil war ok)

Sure, men, transwomen, penis people, whatever they call themselves.

They're bothering me if they're in what should be a female single-sex space. Their issues with other men are nothing to do with me, or any other woman.

How will you police and make sure trans women don’t use women’s toilets? Would you like it to be punishable by a fine? Prison?

@leftorrightnow

and yes I’ve questioned how you’d plan to enforce a rule against transgender women using women’s toilets. You didn’t answer? My point is that the only reason to prevent it would surely be to prevent someone dangerous to be in women’s toilets, is that correct? Because if you just won’t let transgender women use women’s toilets just because they don’t have female genitalia, despite them being totally harmless (which the vast majority is) then that would surely be transphobia?

Your point is wrong. There are three reasons for excluding men from women's single sex spaces: safety, dignity and privacy. I don't give a flying fuck how harmless any man might be, his presence in my loo deprives me of my dignity and privacy. We don't just use a public loo to have a piss. Have you ever had to rinse your underwear or even just your hands when dealing with the aftermath of a heavy period discharge? Could you do that while a man was stood in front of the next basin with your dignity intact? How about spilling red wine on your favourite white top. Could you take it off to rinse it while a man stood beside you without any loss of privacy? How about going shopping with your baby who is still in a buggy? The only way to go to the loo without abandoning your baby is to leave the cubicle door open and pull the buggy in as far as you can. Can you do that with a man present without losing both your dignity and privacy?

HOW will you enforce a rule against trans women in women’s toilets? Can not a single person respond?

Are you really saying men won't listen to women saying 'no'? And yet we're supposed to believe these men are perfectly safe and should have the right to enter single sex spaces?

People who don't understand the basics of indigenous societies talking about two spirit people is not appreciated by those who do know about them.

To quote from the author of this, Deirdre Bell

What’s instead true is that American Indian nations that had more rigid gender roles and assigned women less power historically felt the need to strip male/female identities from non-conformers, while more egalitarian societies with less gender socialization lack two-spirit people because of, rather than in spite of, their lack of emphasis on sex-assigned gender roles.

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

Women need the right to challenge male people, including transwomen, in women's toilets.

And if those male people insist on entering and/or refuse to leave, the right to be backed up by the venue/event management.

You don't even realise how telling it is that we would have to enforce it.

Ah, I get it.

'we're coming in and you can't stop us.'

Nice