Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

TBH I think that your main point is you can’t stand Trump, which is fair enough, but this is just something you’ve latched onto to have a go. You don’t seem to have much of a grasp of the issues, and a lot of what you’ve posted is muddled and contradictory (accusing others of being in thrall to rigid gender roles for example while talking about dressing like women or how women post). You talk of a third sex but previously seem to argue that no one ever said there weren’t two sexes. You state that transwomen (in your parlance transgender women) are men but still say ‘well they can still go in the women’s toilets”. You’re all over the place.

This.

Ah so you're not really about a 3rd sex, you're about 3rd spaces for the 2 sexes who are happy to mix?
We've been here before, feminists have been suggesting this for years.
Funnily enough it's not what trans people want. In fact they get quite uoset if yu suggest it. Try it 😁

Is anyone feeling since yesterday that we are arguing now in slo mo reversal. We're back to Be Kind and 3rd spaces and what about old school nice transexuals?

Yes we know, yesterday is not our first rodeo.

Be kind, and third spaces didn't stop the madness and yes the progressive nut jobs fucked it up for the nice transexuals.

Yes, Trump speaks the language of some of the working class. Mainly, he speaks to the lowest common denominator and spews a lot of nonsense.

Wow. Your contempt for the working class is off the scale 😂😂

I now think you must be a right wing parody of the left just sent to bait us.
No one is that clueless.

Yes Obama was an unusual political talent and optimistic.

The point is there are patterns and you don't seem to understand them.

MalagaNights Is anyone feeling since yesterday that we are arguing now in slo mo reversal.

Yes I feel that!
But I also have this image of a little battery-operated toy train going round and round and round the same little track, it just keeps going back to saying the same things no matter how many times they are shown to be factually inaccurate. No stops to take on facts or opinions or anything that might slow it down as it goes round and round and round on the same track...

Well exactly and then being lectured to by all the middle class liberal arts grads about why you are bad to vote for the uncouth man.
Why are the surprised at the big Fuck You.

Fuck You is a powerful motivator in voting!

I think yesterday has prompted many to really have to confront the issue and why it's come to this, they are new to the scene so we're back to 'why won't it work if we're all just nice??'

Bloody hell it never occurred to us to be nice!!
😂I was nice 10 years ago I'm not anymore.

No it's not complicated.

But it's been rejected out of hand. You don't seem to understand the motives of the people you are advocating for.

re: One thing to watch will be the nomination of Lori Chavez-DeRemer as labour secretary. She's been one of the handful of consistently pro-union Republicans in Congress, very close to the Teamsters, and the old-school Reaganite conservatives hate her nomination.

You can see that here straight from the Teamsters' president Sean O’Brien while talking to Tucker Carlson. Time 44:44 in the video for the relevant part.

@leftorrightnow

How do you think we can ensure third spaces and open sporting categories without acknowledging the existence of transgender people? Genuinely interested. If you think we can, then I am all for that!

If transpeople want third spaces, they can campaign for them. As long as women's spaces are restricted to women, I'm happy.

Open categories in sport don't need to acknowledge trans identities because identities are irrelevant, non-sporting factors. Unlike sex, disability, age, and sometimes weight, for example.

The fact that someone claims a trans identity is usually of no significance or interest to others outside their immediate circle, so I'm not sure why you are focusing so heavily on acknowledging it. What do you specifically mean by "acknowledging" and why/when is it important/appropriate?

As I said upthread, protection from discrimination could come in the form of protection against discrimination on the basis of their belief, or gender nonconformity.

Take a look back over this thread. You have consistently referrred to people as "transphobes", " Daily Mail readers" "reactionaries" and "Classist something or other....". You've made drect personal comment throughout.

I've been polite throughout this thread, have provided reasoned analysis; and have outlined, in some detail, my approach to matters at hand, but there is only so much people will take before they bite.

I'm not sure what it is you hope to achieve here, anyway? You seem to have come to scold people and tell them how wrong/misguided/ petty or hateful they are. I don't have to " legitimise"anything to you. I'm pretty confident my grasp of the issue is superior to yours.

@Shortshriftandlethal
I'm thinking they are here as an vent/outlet to get some emotional pressure release. If Trump is literally The Devil incarnate it must be very scary times.

What is it that you don't understand when people have told you they reject the concept of a transgender person as a specific category of human being?

Once again.......people who have adopted a trans identity remain the sex they are. Their identity is a private matter between themselves and their close friends and family - not a matter for public compulsion and gaslighting.

'Trans' is a post modernistic concept that some people have adopted.

Homosexuality refers to people who are same sex attracted. It is an outrage that Stonewall fought for so long for people who were same sex attracted to have basic rights to live openly with who they love only to turn round and say ' sex is unimportant' because it means same sex attraction doesn't matter. Who cares if you are attracted to someone of the same sex? You can just change gender and it's all fine, you may as well be straight. And if you are a lesbian you should just accept a woman with a penis because they say they are a woman.

You are simply misrepresenting What I’m saying.

a classic trick.

the only people I’ve said is wanting to bring back rigid gender roles is Trump and Elon

I haven’t commented on two sexed or not. All I’ve said is it may be easiest to create a third in between category for all the other letters of the LGBTQI+ acronym.

I think to it main issue with transpeople in women’s toilets would be if they were predatory. If someone is predatory and is
presenting completely as a woman, how do you imagine preventing them from going to women’s toilets? Do you imagine guard at every toilet checking peoples genitalia? Can’t really stop that anyways. The third spaces would be mainly for the protection for transgender people.

and the third category would be for sporting events and any equal opportunity schemes

You are feigning ignorance. Just look at this board to see the evidence of anti-trans sentiment

Again you’re misrepresenting. You’ve changed my adjectives describing views to nouns, thus turning what is commentary on views to comments on people.

I don’t know any of you as people. All I can comment on are your views. And some of them appear by the content on this page as reactionary and transphobic.

I’ve also said the Daily Mail often purports anti trans sentiment. Haven’t called a single person on here a Daily mail reader. maybe you’re not?

what does the word reactionary mean?

It's still nothing to do with homosexualty. Gay people do not want to be the opposite sex. Giving gay people rights to live as they wish and marry people of the same sex does not take away the rights of anyone else.

I think to it main issue with transpeople in women’s toilets would be if they were predatory. If someone is predatory and is
presenting completely as a woman, how do you imagine preventing them from going to women’s toilets? Do you imagine guard at every toilet checking peoples genitalia?

Did you not get the memo that suggesting we check men's genitals as they try and access unconsenting women is just as creepy as it always was, but now it's really old hat.

And a man trying to access unconsenting women is predatory by definition.

But you know all that

This farming of answers and going round in circles is looking terribly familiar.

It feels like someone might have changed their username and posted this in AIBU to try and gather support.

To feel everyone is anti trans? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/5257865-to-feel-everyone-is-anti-trans

Unsurprisingly it hasn't worked.

I have wondered at times if some wc voters feel that both they and Trump are looked down on as crass by the PMC.

In any case, the relationship between the wc and people like Trump is not as simple as some seem to think. Partly because many people are aspirational. Partly because their most immediate class enemies are middle management. (In the UK there is the additional factor that the wc and aristocracy both tend to be "somewheres" and hold some similar value systems.

leftorrightnow the only people I’ve said is wanting to bring back rigid gender roles is Trump and Elon

But it's not just Trump and Elon, is it?
One of the things that makes transgenderism unacceptable to so many people is that it feeds off rigid gender roles. The whole concept of the 'trans child' hinges on children not adhering to rigid gender roles. The gender critical approach is ..well, obviously, critical of rigid gender roles. In other words let boys and girls be whatever they want to be, even if it doesn't coincide with rigid gender roles. And don't expect them to renounce their biological sex, and alter their bodies with pharmaceuticals or surgery to correspond to the opposite gender, if they renounce rigid gender roles.

How does a transgender person manifest that they have changed gender? Since the majority of transwomen do not have surgery, there seems to be a reliance on exaggerated signalling of rigid gender roles to say 'I'm definitely a woman - just look at my womanly behaviour and clothes and mannerisms!'
The insistence on using women's toilets is part of that.

I can't believe you've brought up another old chestnut, the 'checking genitalia at the door' business - of course that would be silly; women should be able to trust men to respect women's spaces, and that includes men who claim to be women.
If they are afraid that they'll be in some kind of danger from predatory or violent men in the men's toilets, well that's a problem to be sorted out between men, it's not up to us women to sort it out.

TBH I don't think you know what you are saying, because you don't really believe it..

You've spoken about multiple 'genders' (in relation to indigenous people), but have approvingly stated that the left have never argued there is 'more than one sex'. I admit I had assumed you had mistyped and meant there was never an argument that there were more than two sexes, but maybe you know something we don't.

On 'rigid gender roles' I've reread you're original post mentioning them and I'll confess that it is actually so incoherent it's difficult to see who you are including in this. However you have argued that calling out the stereotypical performance of gender of transpeople is in fact just some kind of weird trick to hide transphobia - all while talking about men dressing as women.

You've said "I have never argued that transgender men are not still men." (clarifying later that you mean transwomen by transgender men), yet when @Boiledbeetle said "You can't do anything about any of the things you listed if your definition of women includes men." your response was "it Doesn’t include men. It includes trans people."

Now you say . "If someone is predatory and is
presenting completely as a woman, how do you imagine preventing them from going to women’s toilets? Do you imagine guard at every toilet checking peoples genitalia? Can’t really stop that anyways. The third spaces would be mainly for the protection for transgender people." Yesterday you said "We don’t need mixed sex toilets (which I’m against)"

Finally we find that the third sex, which has now become a category, is in fact for " all the other letters of the LGBTQI+ acronym". All the others besides whom? Is every 'queer' person now third sex? But it's OK because it's just for sports and 'equal opportunity schemes' so all the actually female non-binary, asexual, 'intersex', etc, etc people can fight it out with the male ones, and this will apparently be brilliant for women's rights.

As I said, all over the place