Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

There's no problem with transgender women (I presume you mean transmen). The problem is with transgender men (aka transwomen).

This is such a TRA staple that there's no way it's a good faith ask, but for the lurkers out there; in exactly the same way that we did before the rules were changed to allow men who wanted to to use women's spaces if they said the magic words:

1. Clear rules: they're not allowed
2. Because the rules are clear, women feel confident in objecting (probably to, eg, security guards rather than the entitled arse in question, as they're clearly not a reasonable person)
3. Identified interlopers tackled and banned /removed if necessary.

No, it's not foolproof. It never was. But social customs and expectations are powerful things. Especially when they're backed up and enforced.

Transgender women see themselves as women, that’s the whole point, isn’t it? My point re policing toilets is you can’t control how other people define themselves. You can’t do it practically without using force and methods which would be gross human rights violations.

So if trans women are banned from
using women’s toilets which toilets should they use?

Your flip-flopping is very hard to follow.

On the keeping men out / genital inspections straw man I can't help but wonder, even moreso after Trump's election, if the genitals inspection job is like a sneaky plan B if the whole men in women's spaces thing goes tits up.
TRA "Shit we are now banned from women's spaces!"
TRB "OK well in that case where do we apply for the genital inspection jobs then?"
Talk about genital inspections enough, and the jobs might materialise. Playing the long game.

But you see them as ‘still men’. You said that clearly upthread. (I say clearly…) So why let some men in but not others?

So if trans women are banned from using women’s toilets which toilets should they use?

The men's of course. Because transwomen are men. That's the point.

duh

Well, it's not actually women's problem to solve, but they are entitled to use the toilets set aside for their natal sex - the men's - and/or any neutral ones. Plenty of choice. Just not the women's, because they're not.

If some women can’t use women’s toilets because male people who think of themselves as women are allowed in, which toilets should they use?

So we have rules based on real, actual, biological sex, not self-definition.

The the rule in the theatre or the pub or the shopping centre or the airport is that men's toilets are for men, women's toilets are for women.

Anyone using the wrong sex toilets is complained about, the complaint is upheld by security and/or management. If necessary the offender is banned from the location.

(And disabled toilets are for people with disabilities.)

Ideally there are also additional unisex toilets for trans people and anyone who doesn't care who they share a toilet with.

For example - my friend's daughter, an observant Muslim, who had to give up the gym membership she was really enjoying because a TIM insisted on going during the two women-only hours each week. She lost 100% of her provision, in order that a male could select his preference of all the hours.

Genderists think this is fine. I don't.

This raised an interesting question for me:

Before trans was significantly a thing, how did we "enforce" the rule against men using women's toilets, and vice versa?

We didn't really, did we? It was understood and in the vast majority of cases it was respected. So how did that work?

Speaking personally, I either backed out quietly and went to find a security guard, or in the case of the odd apologetic-looking TIM, thought ah what harm and tried to be kind.

Now I know the harm and I'm not remotely interested in being kind any more. Slow handclap, TRAs.

I might see myself as a millionaire, or a supermodel, but nobody is required to play along with that or any other delusions I might have.

Every transwoman knows that they are a biological male. They may not like it, but they all know. If they are a decent person, they would follow the rule regarding using the toilet of your biological sex or a unisex option (if available).

"and yes I’ve questioned how you’d plan to enforce a rule against transgender women using women’s toilets. You didn’t answer? My point is that the only reason to prevent it would surely be to prevent someone dangerous to be in women’s toilets, is that correct? Because if you just won’t let transgender women use women’s toilets just because they don’t have female genitalia, despite them being totally harmless (which the vast majority is) then that would surely be transphobia?"

@leftorrightnow

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, that among prisoners in the UK, men who identify as women are 3x as likely to have committed a sexual offence as men who id as men.

Males commit 98-99% of sex crimes. Men who id as women are still male - they can never turn into anything else. Out of this group, even if the "vast majority" are "totally harmless"...

My acceptable number for women and girls coming to harm as a result of self-identifying "transwomen" - men who id as women - using single sex spaces is zero. What is yours?

Actually all that's really being asked for is for males to understand that female spaces are not theirs, to voluntarily refrain from entering, and to accept that women have the right to have violators removed.

The problem is that far too many males truly cannot conceive of the idea of simply respecting the space and boundaries of women. It literally doesn't cross their minds, so they immediately jump to whether or not women can forcibly stop them. The belief seems to be that if a woman cannot enforce this, they may take anything they like from her with impunity.

Not just talking about transwomen here either. This is one manifestation of a much broader problem.

When my colleague was cornered by a nasty man in the Ladies, another woman, who had seen him going into a place he had no business to be in, followed him in and the two women were able to push him out and make a formal written complaint. He couldn't make excuses like just being in there to use the facilities and being misinterpreted. Because he was in the wrong place.

This

Just clarify: you've been told that 'enforcement' to keep men out of women's toilets should not be an issue, all men should just be respectful of women's single sex spaces.
However, Chersfrozenface gave you a practical answer to your repeated question about how to enforce keeping men out of women's spaces: that would be a job for the event/venue management.

So hopefully that question will stop going round and round the track..

You've also had clear answers to 'which toilet should transwomen use?', so that too should stop going round and round.

I understand that you probably don't like the answers, but that doesn't mean your questions haven't been answered.

This never used to be an issue. Now it is. It is now an issue due to the rise of Gender ideology & Identity Theory/Queer Theory/ post modernistic concepts of the self over the last couple of decades...but it has really taken off over the last 10 years or so. I used to be a teacher around about that time, and nobody had heard of it; it wasn't a thing.

Trans ideologues have been very successful in capturing organisations and getting them to implement their preferences; muddying the waters around the equality act, and falsely telling organisations that gender identity is a protected characteristic. It isn't!

Once we get back to the reality of biological sex and organisations start to enforce the fact that single sex spaces and services mean exactly that......then the social pressure and climate of this knowledege will be enough to deter those who wish to breach boundaries. Clarity around the definition of 'Sex' and what it implies is key to this, and this is an important stage in the push back against gender madness. There are currently rulings in the waiting on this very matter. Step by step we'll get there.

And btw, before you object to the pushing, people are allowed to use appropriate force to defend themselves. It isn't a human rights violation if someone stops you raping them.

People such as yourself should campaign for a third facility. Some new builds have already facilitated this. Until then they use what is appropriate for their sex.

There is no gay 'community'. Gay people are not a monolitic thought or hive mind. And not all people with trans identities take the same view.