Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 20/01/2025 17:39

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

Trump to sign order proclaiming there are only two sexes

Donald Trump's government is set to recognise only two genders, male and female. The move will come as part of a swathe of executive orders the incoming president will sign on his first day back in the White House. It is one of two branded as "common...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/01/2025 18:52

This is apparently the wording of the executive order which makes it very clear

Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)
MarieDeGournay · 20/01/2025 18:53

EmpressoftheMundane · 20/01/2025 18:07

Gender and sex were interchangeable 15 years ago. He is dialing it back to that time.

Are you claiming that gender and sex were only used interchangeably in 2010??

The idea that there is a bunch of socially-constructed stereotypes that get attached to biological males, and biological females, and that vary from culture to culture, class to class and historical era to historical era, goes way back beyond 2010.

Back in the last century, feminists used the concept of gender as opposed to biological sex to critique those gender stereotypes, not to celebrate them as a multiplicity of genders with their own flags!

The whole point about the feminist analysis of sex and gender is that sex is innate and immutable, but gender is not, and gender stereotypes can and should be changed; whereas 'genderwoo' claims that gender is innate and immutable, but sex can be changed.

The words 'sex' and 'gender' have been used interchangeably in everyday speech on both sides of the Atlantic for a long time. But there has also been a use of the terms separately in discussions biological sex vs. gender stereotypes for a long time.

Talulahalula has already posted a more succinct version of what I was trying to say - I have difficulty with words sometimes, and it often takes me a long time to write a post [which always turn out to be too long 😐], but I've spent so fecking long writing it that feck it, I'm posting this even though you've already said it so much better😄

notathenabutcassandra · 20/01/2025 18:54

Piccalow · 20/01/2025 18:42

He didn't say people couldn't swap between them though

gript.ie/trump-executive-order-to-say-biological-reality-of-two-sexes-male-female/

This is pretty specific

Piccalow · 20/01/2025 18:54

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/01/2025 18:52

This is apparently the wording of the executive order which makes it very clear

That's much clearer

Piccalow · 20/01/2025 18:55

Yes that is

JazzyJelly · 20/01/2025 18:58

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

myplace · 20/01/2025 18:59

The clearest, most clearer clarification there has ever been

IwantToRetire · 20/01/2025 19:00

Piccalow · 20/01/2025 18:42

He didn't say people couldn't swap between them though

Good point!

OP posts:
Shortshriftandlethal · 20/01/2025 19:00

FlowchartRequired · 20/01/2025 17:47

It is my understanding that in the US, it is still normal to use 'gender' as a polite way to refer to sex. I agree that this is confusing, however, if the wording of the order is sensible (such as the definitions) then it should be clear that it means there are two sexes and that people cannot change sex.

Definitely! Becauase using the word 'gender' instead of 'sex' leaves you open to saying things like " there are only two genders, men and women"...whereas that is not correct at all. Girls and boys are not women or men yet they do remain either male or female.

Gender is socially prescribed. Sex means exactly what it says on the tin.....male or female.

IwantToRetire · 20/01/2025 19:02

Its okay - NBC have done a clarification!

Trump to sign executive orders proclaiming there are only two biological sexes
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/trump-sign-executive-orders-proclaiming-are-only-two-biological-sexes-rcna188388

OP posts:
EmpressoftheMundane · 20/01/2025 19:04

MarieDeGournay · 20/01/2025 18:53

Are you claiming that gender and sex were only used interchangeably in 2010??

The idea that there is a bunch of socially-constructed stereotypes that get attached to biological males, and biological females, and that vary from culture to culture, class to class and historical era to historical era, goes way back beyond 2010.

Back in the last century, feminists used the concept of gender as opposed to biological sex to critique those gender stereotypes, not to celebrate them as a multiplicity of genders with their own flags!

The whole point about the feminist analysis of sex and gender is that sex is innate and immutable, but gender is not, and gender stereotypes can and should be changed; whereas 'genderwoo' claims that gender is innate and immutable, but sex can be changed.

The words 'sex' and 'gender' have been used interchangeably in everyday speech on both sides of the Atlantic for a long time. But there has also been a use of the terms separately in discussions biological sex vs. gender stereotypes for a long time.

Talulahalula has already posted a more succinct version of what I was trying to say - I have difficulty with words sometimes, and it often takes me a long time to write a post [which always turn out to be too long 😐], but I've spent so fecking long writing it that feck it, I'm posting this even though you've already said it so much better😄

Yeah, I’m saying the general public understood them to be interchangeable. And they were used interchangeably outdide of academia.

I might be wrong about 15 years ago maybe it was 20 years ago. 🤷🏻‍♀️

If they had always been separate and distinct, a lot of people would have realised what was happening a lot sooner.

Childrenofthestones · 20/01/2025 19:06

SionnachRuadh · 20/01/2025 17:53

He means sex. Americans think it's more polite to say gender. I tend to assume he'll gravitate towards what most voters think is the common sense position.

On Reddit, they're panicking about LGBTQ folx being put in concentration camps. Meanwhile, at his rally last night, Trump was dancing with the Village People.

Concentration camps? How can they swallow this shite?

Talulahalula · 20/01/2025 19:07

MarieDeGournay what you said is perfectly eloquent and adds the point about what gender identity theory claims. This is a point well made and I think needed to make the whole argument about why it is necessary to be clear what is meant between sex and gender.

notathenabutcassandra · 20/01/2025 19:08

I only today discovered his campaign slogan around this stuff. Whatever else he and his team are, they know how to come up with direct, powerful statements...

Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)
SionnachRuadh · 20/01/2025 19:09

myplace · 20/01/2025 18:51

Whatever law he enacts will be clear. It’s just his speech that’s a tad woolly.

To be honest I’m surprised he didn’t throw a few superlatives in the sentence. ‘The most womanly women! Men who are the mennest men anyone has ever seen!’

Without the superlatives, how do you even know it’s Trump speaking!?

TRAs are not sending their best. They're sending fetishists, blue fringes, political hacks. Sad!

Under my administration, we'll have the most womanly women in American history. They'll be so womanly, you won't even believe it. Many people say so.

Runor · 20/01/2025 19:11

Let’s go with:

There are only 2 sexes, you can’t change what you are

Gender is applied to stuff which doesn’t have a sex, but is socially associated with a sex eg gendered clothing, gender roles etc. By definition, there are only 2 genders

Anything else is people changing the definition of words for the sake of obfuscation

We all know what Trump means, and his insistence that children shouldn’t undergo pharmacological and surgical interventions because they are confused/mentally unwell/gay/autistic etc will, imo, be one of the very few benefits of his presidency

LizzieSiddal · 20/01/2025 19:23

This needs to happen in the UK too.

MissConductUS · 20/01/2025 19:26

FlowchartRequired · 20/01/2025 17:47

It is my understanding that in the US, it is still normal to use 'gender' as a polite way to refer to sex. I agree that this is confusing, however, if the wording of the order is sensible (such as the definitions) then it should be clear that it means there are two sexes and that people cannot change sex.

Yank here. This is spot on.

Trump campaigned on doing exactly this.

MissConductUS · 20/01/2025 19:29

notathenabutcassandra · 20/01/2025 19:08

I only today discovered his campaign slogan around this stuff. Whatever else he and his team are, they know how to come up with direct, powerful statements...

This was used in a very effective TV advertisement. It likely pushed him over the top in some swing states.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2025 19:30

I only today discovered his campaign slogan around this stuff. Whatever else he and his team are, they know how to come up with direct, powerful statements...

It was a stroke of genius, that campaign, like him or loathe him.

ladymalfoy45 · 20/01/2025 19:32

@MarieDeGournay Nailed it.
30 years ago my female feminist lecturers (Cultural Politics/Media Studies) were saying the same as you.

haterobotcrap · 20/01/2025 19:34

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/01/2025 18:52

This is apparently the wording of the executive order which makes it very clear

This is very clear. And I particularly like the bit about agencies stopping pretending that men can become women and women can become men.

Spot on.

Let's give credit where it's due. He said he'd do it straight away and it certainly looks like he's going to do so.

I hate purity politics where you can't ever admit someone's done a good thing if you're not on the same 'side' or if they've displayed other behaviours or traits you don't like.

If this gets through, Trump will have done a huge amount to safeguard children and women. A lot of people aren't going to like that, but it doesn't make it untrue. Just like a lot of people dislike the fact humans can't magically change sex, it's still a true fact.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2025 19:44

I'm not all that bothered that he said "genders". It's very clear what he means. Americans do use "gender" for sex more than in the UK in my experience. As @nauticant says, actions speak louder than words.

VonHally · 20/01/2025 19:48

Such a direct and positive message. I'd like to think other countries including the UK might now have the cojones to do the same. How the wind blows....

Anyway, I'm most interested in the reaction from TRAs. I hope some of you might have that to hand eventually as I don't have Twix or Reddit or any of those.

Onwards and upwards now we hope!

(We must remember though that EOs are not laws, so proceed with caution).

MissConductUS · 20/01/2025 19:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/01/2025 19:30

I only today discovered his campaign slogan around this stuff. Whatever else he and his team are, they know how to come up with direct, powerful statements...

It was a stroke of genius, that campaign, like him or loathe him.

Here’s the advert:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VVU7pYq3WHw

The clip of her supporting government funded transgender surgery (apologies if that’s the wrong term) for prison inmates is from her previous run for the presidency in 2020.

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VVU7pYq3WHw

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread