Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

[IwantToRetire]

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

But some others may take it further by saying that men doing woman-face isn't a very nice thing to do to women at all, so how can they be that nice?

Indeed. I don't personally experience it, as a woman, as "kind and supportive", ever.

Yes, that's a legitimate question. I don't have a clear answer to it. I do know that I don't want my son to be mocked, even if one could argue his behaviour deserves it. I do not want him to be prevented from renting accommodation because he's wearing a dress. I do not want him to be sacked because of his "gender reassignment", but I wouldn't try to defend him if he was trying to access a women's changing room. I would like employers to try to balance his needs (or wishes) with the needs (and wishes) of other employees, and for the courts to do the same.

I also know "transmen" and with all trans people I believe they should have the same rights as other people of their sex, plus protection from targeted nastiness that is because of their trans identification. But the detail is very complex.

The main thing we have lost because of trans ideology is the expectation of responsible and reasonable behaviour by people who identify as trans - some of them seem to think they can do as they please and everyone else must support that. I do fear a backlash that will harm the trans people I know.

Stopping taking cross sex hormones is not going to seriously damage your physical health....certainly not as much as taking them in the first instance. I assume your body goes back to poducing hormones in their natural quantity, though you may well be left with some long term impacts and effects. Young women who had been taking testosterone may well find they now have a permanently deepened voice and facial hair.

People with trans identities will still exist, but their sex will be corrrectly recorded.

For the avoidance of doubt @Princessconsuelabananahammock9 I am perfectly ok with either:

-Males who identify as women use the correct male spaces based on sex

-Males who identify as women are considered a third category for these purposes, based on their own campaigning.

It's not me you have to convince.

I've been quite clear that I don't hide me opinions.

But again why do you think I should be convincing them to agree with me? I don't care if they agree.

Clearly since we are discussing an executive order Trump or any other government official doesn't need trans women who are assholes to agree? It has no bearing on law.

But I do wonder what this means for those who have already transitioned? Is it ok to discriminate against them in the workforce?

Again, none of us really knows what this means long term do we?

@Princessconsuelabananahammock9
I don't argue with the KKK in order to protect my rights?
That would be a collosal waste of time and I won't convince them black people should have equal rights.

You're wrong on that. Look into Daryl Davies a black musician who talked to the KKK to try and understand them. As the KKK members got to know Daryl more and more left the KKK. Even the Grand Dragon ( top KKK ) of Maryland left the KKK and to this day the KKK in Maryland has collapsed. All because one black guy started talking to them.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/18/daryl-davis-black-musician-who-converts-ku-klux-klan-members

What he wants is to bring the focus back on the gender differences between men and women. The NATURAL order of things. Common sense. Such as men run things and women stay at home.

What exactly is ‘natural’ or ‘common sense’ about these rancid sexist stereotypes views you cite?

I've seen a few different black men who have done this. It's great but not my job.

Plus I'm a woman. I don't imagine I need to explain why that changes the equation?

The discrimination one is going to be interesting.

Maybe they will have to change it to be based on what might loosely be called gender expression, but in the real world is dress code.

So if a man wants to go to work in a dress , he can, you can't fire him for it (although AGP is still going to be an issue), but he doesn't get to use female provision, and he is recorded as male.

Thanks for responding, I agree with your thinking.

There is however the issue of many trans women being agp and performing their fetish in public which I think is going to complicate some of this going forward.

The furore around a man in a dress at the Genspect conference was an example of what might be to come.

Yep, but AGP is still going to be an issue.

Unless we all agree to pretend it's not really a thing to get along... This might be the ony workable solution. But it's going to get tested I think.

That's not exactly how it works.

So if my partner were to have no access to testosterone he would suffer from heart failure.

He's also had a complete hysterectomy.

These are my concerns.

What does this mean for people who have already transitioned?

Would he have to taper off testosterone and go on estrogen?

Would it be legal to discriminate against him in a job interview?

I mean he passes as a man but he has a prominent tattoo saying proud with the trans flag.

If we are out and someone clocks this does that mean they can refuse to serve him?

And is that what would make you feel safer? If the people who have transitioned have to detransition?

People who have lived as the opposite sex for years and years?

Is that the answer? No more trans people?

What if...

What if...

What if...

What if the poster tells us which HUMAN RIGHTS trans people are losing instead of evading the question or others jumping in with what ifs?

Yeah, I think people might just not hire someone with obvious AGP. Although fake breasted Canadian teacher was already employed before they showed up like that.

I can't see many people agreeing, though, that men can't wear women's clothes, and vice versa

The what ifs are because we don't know.

Nothing has been made clear.

Can you explain exactly what this order means?

I genuinely don't know what the impact will be because I don't understand what the order is saying beyond there are only biological men and women.

I don't think it's crazy to ask questions and be concerned about those impacted?

Are you in the US @Princessconsuelabananahammock9 ?

As a Canadian that was ridiculous.

I don't think anyone cared that she had obvious fake breasts, but her clothing was inappropriate and creepy ASF.

Clearly many issues happening there.

Safer??

What it is going make women feel safer is not putting rapists in with them when they can't escape. And if they happen to be assaulted by him, that they can access a female refuge, without another transwoman showing up to tell them to reframe their trauma.

The safety aspect is about men wanting to access women's spaces, not women who want to access the men's.

The problem is we know most AGPs aren't doing the huge comedy breasts they're just you're nice friendly trans women i.e. Debbie Hayton.

It's almost like we'll have to just pretend to not know what we now know.

Maybe they will have to change it to be based on what might loosely be called gender expression, but in the real world is dress code.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, there was a recent case in the UK Civil Service regarding the way a transwoman dressed at work. I can see there being more due to the manner in which some transwomen choose to dress and present.

The base line is if it would not be acceptable for other members of staff to dress or present in that manner then the same has to apply to the trans employee.

Canadian but travel for work there a lot. Used to live in New York and LA.

My partner and I both spend time there, but obviously that will change now.

This is going to be a contentious response, and I preface it by saying that I know it will be received by some as unkind. Be that as it may...

There are some positions in which it is vitally important to be able to make quick, life threatening decisions based upon the reality of a situation. I would genuinely consider it to be dangerous to employ someone who was unable to discern between reality and fantasy.

As a teenager I visited a friend at his fire house and told his chief that I believed women should be allowed to be firefighters. We had a long discussion about what was required of a firefighter. By the end, I acknowledged that yes, women can be firefighters, as long as they demonstrate that they can carry colleagues who may weigh twice as much as them, carrying 7-10kg of equipment, out of a dangerous situation. And any man who can't do thjat should also be excluded from such a role.

A job interview is about someone's suitability to execute a role.

I think people did care that this man had enormous fake breasts!

A man wearing fake breasts to school is an obvious red flag. If it's not AGP, what is it?

We happen to have had, straight from the horse's mouth, from an ostensibly very supportive transwoman, that he, and many men who identify as women, believe that the size of a woman's breasts denote her social status.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any man to wear fake breasts, whether they are enormous, small, or inappropriately clad.

Again, none of us really knows what this means long term do we?
No we don't @Princessconsuelabananahammock9 I think you are right on that.

But we do know that biological reality is now reflected in the law and that is essential for everything else to be based on.

I agree with this.

But my other concerns still remain.

I absolutely support women only spaces. Always have.

I was in Vancouver during the repeated trails of a trans woman who was terrorizing women's spas and tape crisis centers. I fought to defend those spaces and still do.

I just have concerns over what this executive order means for trans people.

I don't like all trans people, in fact I think a lot of trans women have an insane point of male privilege they don't grasp.

But, I'm still concerned about what this means.