Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

Answer my question please

Don’t worry, we’ve been rebranded now. You have a choice between ‘Cervix Haver’ and ‘Person with a Uterus’.

Clearly if you have neither due to surgical intervention you are cast out of the group.
Sorry mate - I’ll join you over with the NonUterusHavers as soon as I reach the top of this massive NHS gynaecology waitlist. Only 3 quarters of a million appointments to get through before mine!

Anyway I’m off to petition MNHQ to change the same of the site to GenderNeutralBirthingParentnet.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.

How many times does it need to be said?

I don't care how hard your life has been, it doesn't mean your wants should be prioritised over women's needs.

And when women are saying they need women's spaces to be single sex and your response is, "But I've had such a hard life!" that is exactly what you are doing.

And it shows that you are male and that you have been socialised as male and that you still enjoy male privilege, because putting other people's needs before your own is typically female behaviour and expecting others to put your needs before theirs is typically male behaviour. Which is exactly how we have ended up in this position. Because trans women expect the answer to be "yes", and women socialised not to say "no", and even when some of us do pluck up the courage to say "no", you don't take "no" for an answer. Like so many other men who don't take "no" for an answer.

Are you an American Butters? Because there really is no reason to get one’s knickers in a twist over ‘Evangelism’ in the U.K.

In the UK Evangelical Christians are a persecuted minority.

😆😆

Male Socialisation is amazing, innit? It really does make males think that their needs are always more important than the needs of females (eg the need for single SEX spaces).

It’s been both fascinating and horrifying to witness how male socialisation persists even in males who claim to be female, it even persists beyond a penectomy!

I will continue to fight on behalf of all women regardless of how authentic you consider my particular womanhood to be.

I would ask that you please not do the far right's work for them. Policing femininity and creating a climate of fear that enables the abuse of anyone who does not superficially appear to be 'female enough' does not aid any of us in any way.

When deciding who should be allowed into women's spaces, why should it be anything other than being female?

Using Butters as an example, Butters knows they are male so don't belong but feels entitlement as they apparently look more female than their female friends. Why should that male person be allowed but not Phil Mitchell from Eastenders? Both are male so both are a potential risk to women.

Is it because Butters has had surgery? Well you can't say men who have lost their genitals due to disease or trauma must be banned from the gents so why should a man who decided to chop it off stop using the gents? We also can't tell if a fella has had the chop so need to let them all in so as not to exclude the cockless men. For most transwomen, surgery just means a boob job. They could call themselves post op transwomen so can't use post op as a criteria for entry.

Maybe make up? Nope, like lots of women I don't wear it and there are many men that do.

Clothes? Nope again as most people wear trousers these days. We don't have spaces for people wearing trousers and people wearing skirts as that would be silly.

If we talk about risk of sexual assault, gay men aren't likely to be a risk to women so should we tell all gay men that they should use the ladies?

It's all getting rather complicated now and how on earth would you label the door?

Butters thinks we should use gender as the criteria but that's an incredibly transphobic point of view as Butters is invalidating everyone with a gender other than man and woman. It also means that most people don't have anywhere to go as most of us don't have a gender.

The simplest and fairest option is biological sex and trans people need to learn to respect the sex they claim to be and stay out. Campaign for a gender neutral, additional space if you don't fancy the gents. Transwomen currently have the choice of both ladies and gents but women who cannot be in a space with an unrelated male have nowhere to go. Women don't want to share with men, no matter how womanly that man thinks he is.

If transwomen learnt to respect women and stay out of our spaces, we wouldn't feel suspicion about the people in them. Trans people forcing their way into where they don't belong is what is making us fight back. Transvestigating is caused 100% by trans people so only trans people can stop it.

I'm sure Tufton Street agree wholeheartedly.

I actually accept and sympathise with much of this. You are not making this up. Gender non conforming people do get a rough ride from some sections of our society. Feminine traits (female biology and feminine constructions) are devalued by Patriarchy and the people who exhibit them.treated as less than. There is a genuine overlap in the intersecting experiences of women (original female meaning), LGB and gender non conforming people in Patriarchy.

However nothing you say here is a justification to redefine women (original sex based meaning) as a mixed sex personality traits, nor to open up women (original sex based meaning) only supports, spaces, language and opportunities. We have an overlap of some experiences. We are not the same thing. You are deliberately conflating your valid need for support and protection with your preference that this takes the form of carte blanche access to the support structures of women.

You can define yourself as a minority based on whatever shared attribute or experience is meaningful to you. You can activate, politicise and demand that society respects and supports you and if your point is reasonable over time you will gain allies and support.

But what you cannot morally do is identify into someone else's group / support structures because you arbitrarily decide the attributes around which they have come together are less important than your own definition of those people.

Saying no to the redefinition of the marginalised group Women (original sex based meaning) and the appropriation of their history, political voice and support resources to benefit a different group, men (original sex based meaning) who believe sonething in their mind makes them women is not hatred. It is not transphobia. It is women (original
sex based meaning) protecting themselves and their own supports against Patriarchal oppression.

You need support but you need to define and create your own support. You can't have e ours because we are still using it and we still need it for the challenges we have that you do not share.

And I'm sorry, but the readon things are now getting worse again for you is because of TRAs own overreach. When you stopped asking for respect and tolerance to be different and started demanding the right to be treated as simply a differently bodied version of the opposite sex, with any concerns about how that impacts the actual opposite ex, especially women (original sex based meaning) who have historically suffered physically and socially at the hands of men (original sex based meaning) and who are typically physically weaker, and therefore have good reason to want female only spaces, services and opportunities, when people.saw what you wanted was not fairness, respect and tolerance but dominion, unaccountability and special dispensations, you burned the goodwill and sympathy you had been building.

If you want allies then you need to be our allies, not just another male oppressor.

Don’t worry Butters, we aren’t ‘working’ on behalf of anyone that isn’t a female person.

But female evangelists and female right wingers are (obviously!) welcome to use female only spaces and services.

No, trans activism has been an absolute godsend for the far right. So much so that I'm almost tempted to believe that some of the most powerful trans lobby groups are actually Russian plants whose goal is to make the political left self destruct.

Because so called "liberal feminists" are about as much use as a chocolate teapot in advancing actual women's rights because they're too busy wringing their hands about the terrible plight of male women and calling actual feminists TERFs, and actual feminists are having to fend off both traditional misogyny from the right and woke misogyny from the left.

And so many far more important issues are not being dealt with because trans people are taking up too much of everyone's bandwidth. Like you on this thread.

now you sound like a conspiracy theorist from TQ Anon.

@ButterflyHatched I'm still waiting to hear how letting men access women's spaces will prevent the rise of the right

Then stay out of women's spaces and we won't need to scrutinise everyone in the women's toilets to make sure they're actually a woman and it's safe for us to be there.

Stop blaming women for a problem that you caused.

Copenhagen Street is surely more relevant to UK evangelical Christian’s?

Are we back onto the Xtian Far Right again?

Has anyone ever got their free lesbian wife, financial donations and T shirt?

Talk about the long con.

@ButterflyHatched if you want to fight for women then fight for the majority of us who want to keep single sex spaces.

Yes and also makes them think their wants are more important than children's safety.

It's this more than anything else that is emboldening women to say no, it's why KJK got into this fight.

Don't fuck with our children.

I remember last week when we were told by a male poster that we were under very close observation while we expressed our dismay at someone advocating for a type of non-consensual sex to be legal.

I mean... Just point out that there is a high likelihood of male people who get off on female people's distress about non-consensual sex acts watching to silence a group of disagreeable female people. Nothing to see here....

Imagine you visited someone regularly, maybe a grandparent who has a biscuit tin. Every time you go round they let you help yourself. They always have the same type of biscuit so you don't look, just reach in and grab one.

What you don't know is that they have decided to sometimes have another type of biscuit, one you don't particularly like. You are having a chat while grabbing a biscuit and when you take a bite, realise it's the horrible biscuit. From then on, wouldn't you look in the tin to make sure you pick the right one in future?

I refuse to be guilt-tripped by your assertion that I am "doing the far right's work for them". I might just as well say it is TRAs doing it for them, by their overreach: no-one worried much about trans people until transwomen started aggressively asserting their "rights" to enter women's spaces, compete in women's sports, be seen as women's representatives, change the very language used by women to describe themselves as a sex class, etc., and abused or called for the "cancelling" of anyone who had the temerity to disagree with them.

If it were not for the (sometimes justified) suspicion that biological men were in women's spaces, the concept of "appearing female enough" would not arise.

It is amazing that you feel you have the right to "ask" natal women not to act in any way at all they feel they want or need to.

I did.

You don't have to spread rhetoric that encourages the marginalisation and abuse of trans people in order to enable the rise of the far right, but it certainly helps!

The NSDStB students - who, on the 6th of May 1933, were loading the first books marked for burning into a truck bound for the Opernplatz in Berlin, which they had just siezed when they raided Hirschild's Institute for Sexual Science - would wholeheartedly agree.

Fucking years I've been on here hard at work for my Russian bot/Xtian US evangelist/Tory Trumpian Nazibigot paylords, and what do I have to show for it?

Fucking perimenopausal angst and a superlative eyeroll, that's what.