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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

1000 replies

Christinapple · 09/12/2024 01:00

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Beowulfa · 11/12/2024 12:34

We have banned healthcare for trans children in this country. Non-trans children are still allowed to access these treatments. It is only the trans children who are banned.

I wanted to point out this particular piece of mendacious hyperbole from Butterfly Hatched's 18.35 post yesterday.

Children with the specific medical condition of precocious puberty are still being offered a particular prescription, which like all treatment plans in evidence-based medicine, is subject to regular and rigorous review.

Children with the unrelated condition of gender distress are no longer being offered a particular medication, as when someone finally got round to reviewing the clinical evidence for this treatment it was found to be wanting.

To position this as a trans vs non-trans battle of the kiddie drugs is ridiculously crass. As if the parents of 7 year olds are whooping when they get the "least worst" option of delaying their daughters' periods for a couple of years in exchange for serious side effects later in life. Yay, they won the PB Brucie Bonus!

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 12:36

If you are dismissing off-hand the notion that a person who has undergone a developmental pathway that causes society to exclusively view her as a woman would then be subject to the consequences of society exclusively viewing her as a woman then a lot of other aspects of this discussion fall into place.

The constant skepticism when personal experiences are presented (with a side order of jibes and minimisations) seems to be an essential tool to ensure detachment and dehumanisation. "That predatory infiltrator must be lying. It must be hyperbolic. No trans woman could have actually experienced this."

The essentialist reductions claiming that those miserable, real experiences are metaphysically invalid are likewise a necessary backstop just in case the temptation arises to consider a common ground. "It isn't the same. Those are male experiences. You are genetically exempt from complex social dynamics that involve predators who have no visibility of your chromosomes. You cannot experience negative social attitudes and abusive behaviours from people who do not know your medical history, and if you did then they would magically transmute into transphobia instead."

The complete refusal to view intersecting avenues of oppression in a nuanced fashion, seems to likewise be an essential component. "There can be no common ground. No shared experiences. No acknowledgement of mutual suffering. There is only one true pain, and fellow victims with inconvenient backgrounds are actually rivals or enemies who are stealing or corrupting its authenticity. Even if it did happen - even if people really have been subjecting you to these things - your experiences exist in a zero-sum competition with the authentic ones."

The final piece of the puzzle seems to be motive projection. "Even though you are either lying or exaggerating; even though it is metaphysically invalid; even though you cannot experience more than one axis of oppression simultaneously - if you did actually experience those things then you either deserved to and are an idiot or actively wanted to and are thus spiritually suspect."

This is where we arrive at comparisons with sexual predators - which is such a mind-reelingly awful way to harm someone who has suffered these experiences herself and is begging for you not to engage in behaviours that are actively harming all women that it almost beggars belief.

I beg you, please. Look at what is happening here. Why are you even arguing these points? Do they even make sense? Do they reflect the material reality that it is clearly possible for others to experience no matter how much we wish we could dismiss them? How do you feel when people do the same to you?

Please don't pass the pain on when someone begs you for compassion. There are things that trans women do not and cannot experience, yes, and I find attempts to claim them on the part of trans women to be just as gross and offensive as you do. There are things we do experience, however. Ways in which the world hurts anyone it perceives to be female, and ways in which it hurts anyone it identifies as other. Both of these things can be true. Both can apply to someone at the same time.

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2024 12:38

Well, as we all know, rocket surgery only applies to a tiny minority, Datun.

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 11/12/2024 12:41

Beowulfa · 11/12/2024 12:34

We have banned healthcare for trans children in this country. Non-trans children are still allowed to access these treatments. It is only the trans children who are banned.

I wanted to point out this particular piece of mendacious hyperbole from Butterfly Hatched's 18.35 post yesterday.

Children with the specific medical condition of precocious puberty are still being offered a particular prescription, which like all treatment plans in evidence-based medicine, is subject to regular and rigorous review.

Children with the unrelated condition of gender distress are no longer being offered a particular medication, as when someone finally got round to reviewing the clinical evidence for this treatment it was found to be wanting.

To position this as a trans vs non-trans battle of the kiddie drugs is ridiculously crass. As if the parents of 7 year olds are whooping when they get the "least worst" option of delaying their daughters' periods for a couple of years in exchange for serious side effects later in life. Yay, they won the PB Brucie Bonus!

How dare healthy trans children not have access to leg amputations when children with horrific leg injuries get them!!

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 11/12/2024 12:45

Butters you long spiel lost me but I suggest you read the Aesop Fable of the boy who cried wolf and consider the moral of the story,

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 12:49

Butters has a fan!

Sadly for Butters it seems the fan is also a surgically feminised male, which may explain the Redditor’s total inability to realise how counterproductive Butter’s MN posts are.

Every single Butters post is a real time demonstration of how males with special gender identities are not the same as women & girls.

Still, it’s nice for Butters to have some solidarity - you guys should definitely expand on your community commonalities and use your shared ‘embodiment experiences’ to campaign for your own, specially tailored, spaces, services and sports.

Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?
ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 12:51

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 12:36

If you are dismissing off-hand the notion that a person who has undergone a developmental pathway that causes society to exclusively view her as a woman would then be subject to the consequences of society exclusively viewing her as a woman then a lot of other aspects of this discussion fall into place.

The constant skepticism when personal experiences are presented (with a side order of jibes and minimisations) seems to be an essential tool to ensure detachment and dehumanisation. "That predatory infiltrator must be lying. It must be hyperbolic. No trans woman could have actually experienced this."

The essentialist reductions claiming that those miserable, real experiences are metaphysically invalid are likewise a necessary backstop just in case the temptation arises to consider a common ground. "It isn't the same. Those are male experiences. You are genetically exempt from complex social dynamics that involve predators who have no visibility of your chromosomes. You cannot experience negative social attitudes and abusive behaviours from people who do not know your medical history, and if you did then they would magically transmute into transphobia instead."

The complete refusal to view intersecting avenues of oppression in a nuanced fashion, seems to likewise be an essential component. "There can be no common ground. No shared experiences. No acknowledgement of mutual suffering. There is only one true pain, and fellow victims with inconvenient backgrounds are actually rivals or enemies who are stealing or corrupting its authenticity. Even if it did happen - even if people really have been subjecting you to these things - your experiences exist in a zero-sum competition with the authentic ones."

The final piece of the puzzle seems to be motive projection. "Even though you are either lying or exaggerating; even though it is metaphysically invalid; even though you cannot experience more than one axis of oppression simultaneously - if you did actually experience those things then you either deserved to and are an idiot or actively wanted to and are thus spiritually suspect."

This is where we arrive at comparisons with sexual predators - which is such a mind-reelingly awful way to harm someone who has suffered these experiences herself and is begging for you not to engage in behaviours that are actively harming all women that it almost beggars belief.

I beg you, please. Look at what is happening here. Why are you even arguing these points? Do they even make sense? Do they reflect the material reality that it is clearly possible for others to experience no matter how much we wish we could dismiss them? How do you feel when people do the same to you?

Please don't pass the pain on when someone begs you for compassion. There are things that trans women do not and cannot experience, yes, and I find attempts to claim them on the part of trans women to be just as gross and offensive as you do. There are things we do experience, however. Ways in which the world hurts anyone it perceives to be female, and ways in which it hurts anyone it identifies as other. Both of these things can be true. Both can apply to someone at the same time.

So you have some miserable experiences when you are perceived as a woman and you have some miserable experiences when you are perceived as a transwoman. I'm sorry you are miserable, but none of that is our fault or our responsibility to solve.

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 12:52

There are things we do experience, however. Ways in which the world hurts anyone it perceives to be female, and ways in which it hurts anyone it identifies as other.

Yep, read the whole post. You still haven't explained how you think (female) women can save you.

You've done absolutely loads of pleading and begging, as you put it, yet very unclear on what you're begging for. Consideration and compassion? Okay. Poor dear, you do have a hard time - while also having a much easier time than all the 'cis' women surrounding you, due to your extreme womanliness, but let's overlook that. I don't want anyone to be bullied.

Is that enough? No? What else are you pleading for?

Waitwhat23 · 11/12/2024 12:53

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 12:49

Butters has a fan!

Sadly for Butters it seems the fan is also a surgically feminised male, which may explain the Redditor’s total inability to realise how counterproductive Butter’s MN posts are.

Every single Butters post is a real time demonstration of how males with special gender identities are not the same as women & girls.

Still, it’s nice for Butters to have some solidarity - you guys should definitely expand on your community commonalities and use your shared ‘embodiment experiences’ to campaign for your own, specially tailored, spaces, services and sports.

Remember when we used to get called 'ridiculous and hysterial' when we said that there was a plethora of misogynistic monitors watching this board?

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 12:56

Waitwhat23 · 11/12/2024 12:53

Remember when we used to get called 'ridiculous and hysterial' when we said that there was a plethora of misogynistic monitors watching this board?

Roe V Wade Handmaids GIF by GIPHY News

Under They/Thems Eye.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 11/12/2024 13:00

'Valiantly taking on' elicited my first chuckle of the day.

SinnerBoy · 11/12/2024 13:05
james bond cat GIF by Giffffr

Brefugee · Today 09:53

Define "hate crimes"

I too wait agog...

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 13:15

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 12:51

So you have some miserable experiences when you are perceived as a woman and you have some miserable experiences when you are perceived as a transwoman. I'm sorry you are miserable, but none of that is our fault or our responsibility to solve.

Well, at least you didn't claim I'm lying.

Please consider how the effects of a decade of mainstream media demonisation are likely to manifest when combined with a neoreactionary surge in misogyny and the ongoing demonisation and scapegoating of minority groups.

Then consider what is happening. When did you last read a newspaper that wasn't screaming about trans people or other marginalised minorities? When was the last time conservative politics did not headline transphobia as part of a wider Other Bad Must Eject narrative? What is the rhetoric they are shamelessly hijacking? Where does it come from?

Trans people are the canary in the coalmine. We have been chirruping for years now. We are already seeing a pivot toward the next targets - reproductive rights and sexuality - because so much ground has already been lost. Politicians have given up on protecting trans people; we have been so successfully demonised that we're increasingly too poisonous to touch.

We've lost a generation's progress already and it won't stop unless we stop it.

I'm not blaming you for Trump and the rise of the alt-right; I'm simply saying that we lose when we fight ourselves and right now, a lot of the ammunition supplies are coming from here.

WarmingClothesontheRadiator · 11/12/2024 13:17

Well, at least you didn't claim I'm lying.

We don’t need to claim it; you have repeatedly admitted on this thread to lying continuously.

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 13:18

Progress of trans rights = erosion of women’s rights.

so yes, we want to stop your ‘progress’ Butters.

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 13:26

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 13:15

Well, at least you didn't claim I'm lying.

Please consider how the effects of a decade of mainstream media demonisation are likely to manifest when combined with a neoreactionary surge in misogyny and the ongoing demonisation and scapegoating of minority groups.

Then consider what is happening. When did you last read a newspaper that wasn't screaming about trans people or other marginalised minorities? When was the last time conservative politics did not headline transphobia as part of a wider Other Bad Must Eject narrative? What is the rhetoric they are shamelessly hijacking? Where does it come from?

Trans people are the canary in the coalmine. We have been chirruping for years now. We are already seeing a pivot toward the next targets - reproductive rights and sexuality - because so much ground has already been lost. Politicians have given up on protecting trans people; we have been so successfully demonised that we're increasingly too poisonous to touch.

We've lost a generation's progress already and it won't stop unless we stop it.

I'm not blaming you for Trump and the rise of the alt-right; I'm simply saying that we lose when we fight ourselves and right now, a lot of the ammunition supplies are coming from here.

So you want women to let men into women's spaces in order to halt the rise of the right?

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 13:39

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 13:26

So you want women to let men into women's spaces in order to halt the rise of the right?

Haven’t you heard? The best way to fight fascism in 2024 is to allow males to bully, wheedle and coerce their way into the female-only change room at the swimming baths!

Clabony · 11/12/2024 13:39

That reddit post gives me Carry On Cleo vibes.
Infamy! infamy! They've all got it in fer me!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eRnd48yTC5A

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eRnd48yTC5A

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 13:45

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 13:18

Progress of trans rights = erosion of women’s rights.

so yes, we want to stop your ‘progress’ Butters.

This is not, in any identifiable fashion, true.

Allowing marginalised minorities to be protected from discrimination does not erode your rights.

Evangelist attacks on reproductive rights and sexuality are not the work of trans people.

The beguiling, hypnotic rhetoric of manosphere youtubers that is hypnotising young men is not the work of trans people.

The ejection of minorities from the US military - for the second time - is not the work of trans people. Nor is the proposed removal of women from combat roles.

Project 2025 is not the work of trans people.

The greatest triumph of misogyny in the 21st century has been its success in selling the lie that the right of a tiny, marginalised group of people to not be discriminated against is somehow inimical to the rights of all women.

NewGreenDuck · 11/12/2024 13:47

If spaces intended for the female sex stop being that then women have lost everything. Because the word ' woman' is then meaningless.

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 13:48

The greatest triumph of misogyny in the 21st century has been its success in selling the lie that the right of a tiny, marginalised group of people to not be discriminated against is somehow inimical to the rights of all women.

And by 'discriminated against' do you mean men not being allowed to access women's spaces?

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 13:51

Women no longer have anything for themselves that a man with a certificate cannot demand.

That is an erosion in women’s rights due to ‘trans progress’.

That no one is allowed to see the magical certificate has produced a sort of chilling effect that leaves people afraid to challenge a man in a woman’s space.
Repeal the GRA.

SinnerBoy · 11/12/2024 13:52

Butterfly

Please consider how the effects of a decade of mainstream media demonisation

Sorry, but that's palpable nonsense. Most coverage is nauseatingly gushing and it's ALWAYS she/her.

Travelodge · 11/12/2024 13:53

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 13:15

Well, at least you didn't claim I'm lying.

Please consider how the effects of a decade of mainstream media demonisation are likely to manifest when combined with a neoreactionary surge in misogyny and the ongoing demonisation and scapegoating of minority groups.

Then consider what is happening. When did you last read a newspaper that wasn't screaming about trans people or other marginalised minorities? When was the last time conservative politics did not headline transphobia as part of a wider Other Bad Must Eject narrative? What is the rhetoric they are shamelessly hijacking? Where does it come from?

Trans people are the canary in the coalmine. We have been chirruping for years now. We are already seeing a pivot toward the next targets - reproductive rights and sexuality - because so much ground has already been lost. Politicians have given up on protecting trans people; we have been so successfully demonised that we're increasingly too poisonous to touch.

We've lost a generation's progress already and it won't stop unless we stop it.

I'm not blaming you for Trump and the rise of the alt-right; I'm simply saying that we lose when we fight ourselves and right now, a lot of the ammunition supplies are coming from here.

"We" are not fighting "ourselves" because other than a history of oppression (which doesn't mean we are or have been oppressed for the same reasons), I'm afraid I don’t feel I have anything in common with you.

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 13:53

ellenback21 · 11/12/2024 13:26

So you want women to let men into women's spaces in order to halt the rise of the right?

Do you believe the evangelist right actually gives a shit about protecting women's spaces and reproductive rights? Seriously? Do you believe any of it?

They're fighting smart and the anti-trans reactionary turn of feminist communities is an absolute godsend for them. It has enabled a 'hold your nose; at least trans people will suffer' argument to gain ground.

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