Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

Crossdressers have been percieved as gay and persecuted on the basis of perceived homosexuality throughout history. You must also consider that the director of the institute destroyed in May 1933, Magnus Hirschfeld, was Jewish and probably gay himself. The Third Reich's ideology surrounding sex was that it was for white straight married couples to have babies and that any kind of research into sex that countered that was degenerate and unGerman. With the director of the institute being Jewish, it was easy to fabricate a conspiracy theory along the lines of "those nasty Jews are trying to destroy Germany by undermining the marriage union and preventing the births of German babies and this institute is at the heart of it".

There is a well-known symbol from the concentration and death camps that has become a symbol of gay resistance: the pink triangle stitched to prisoners' uniforms. What is the symbol of crossdressers and transgender people from the camps? I'll wait.

No one is claiming that crossdressers and the very small number of patients of the institute who had undergone medical intervention didn't end up dying in the camps. They did. We are saying that they weren't targeted for being trans because Third Reich Germany just didn't have that kind of concept. They died in the camps because they were Jewish, or perceived as gay, or Roma, or accused of being political dissidents.

@ButterflyHatched you keep going on about holocaust denial. That's because to deny it is a travesty yes? Can you honestly not see how completely denying sex based rights is also a travesty? And even worse from your position because you're trying to deny the rights of the very people who you are basically emulating. Do you not see the glaring hypocrisy there?

@Ereshkigalangcleg pretty sure I haven't seen one link to any kind of source from him. I'd imagine trying to find what doesn't exist is pretty fucking hard😂

@ButterflyHatched : Your posts are so unpleasant and offensive that I’m now seriously thinking that you are in fact a troll, a genuine transphobe cleverly doing all you can to make everyone despise trans people. That's really the best explanation I can see. Surely no-one who was really a trans person would deliberately invite such well-deserved contempt.

I beg you to stop encouraging and feeding hatred.

I am only partly through these last few pages and I doubt anyone can miss the DARVO contained within these pages. The flip from insinuated accusation, denying making the insinuation, the performative pleading is enough to cause whiplash, then it follows on with just more fuckwittery and accusations.

That is TRA/GI C (tragic) logic, perhaps?

I rtft in one go and could not believe what I was reading. That was male entitlement and attitude pouring out unbelievable bullshit. Ironic😏

'performative pleading'. Totally. It's a weird one. Mind you, it's all performative.

I definitely got am dram vibes

Absolutely. Some posters just enjoy upsetting women.

My right to safety and dignity shouldn't be conditional on whether a man sincerely believes he is a woman any more than it should be conditional on whether he sincerely believes that the earth is flat or that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

Sincerity of belief is not a workable criterion for inclusion in any event.

What it comes down to, again, is that if we have to let the ones who sincerely believe they are women into our spaces, we cannot exclude any man.

They are breaking the social contract by being there in the first place. Their presence is the problem, regardless of whether they're utterly delightful or a convicted murderer like Sarah Jane Baker.

Have named any trans Holocaust victims yet? Wikipedia can only come up with two, one of whom was sent to the camps for being a gay man.

As a dog person, I hope no one minds me drawing attention to the hot topic on MN, XL Bullies, where posters will say how lovely these fur babies are - until they are not. Their innate strength means that they can overpower anything and anyone, and their mere presence is enough to intimidate most.

(It goes without saying I that am not thinking, let alone implying, that anyone should be culled. XL Bullies, yes; people, no).

Butters is not only unable to come up with any evidence to back up his assertions, he is not interested in doing so either. He doesn’t wish to engage in good faith hence.

A belief system that lies about the appalling things that happened in Germany during the Nazi period in order to claim a martyr status is shameful. Trying to elevate 'trans people' as victims over Jewish families, men, women, children, little toddlers and babies rounded up from all over occupied Europe - words fail me.

Yes, the book burnings were terrible. But Hirschfeld's library was a tiny, tiny subset. Books burned included those by Jews on any subject, books by pacifists, books by artists, anything about sex whether scientific or pornographic, modern fiction including works in translation, sentimental fiction, 80% of books in school libraries in Poland, 75% of scientific texts in libraries in Poland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burning

Just as Hitler's chief wartime enemy, Stalin, doesn't become a good nice person because he opposed Hitler, neither does the work of Hirschfeld and his associates become universally benevolent and good because he was persecuted by Hitler. As I pointed out, one of his active collaborators was a Nazi who continued experiments of human victims during the war.

Yes. The "performative" nature of it is so blatant that that's why I was tempted to think BH must be a troll.

"Listen to trans people", they said.
"I did," I replied. "That's why I'm a TERF now."

I also haven’t yet seen any explanation of what BH means by the "social contract" women are apparently all bound by.

I think it is rather hard for some people to believe that male entitlement can be developed from
very early childhood. I reckon that even if some one claims to be female from early childhood, they sub consciously still continue to take in all the male entitlement they see in the world for the rest of their life despite this outwardly projected belief that they are female. All it takes is for them to be thwarted and they fall back on that entitlement.

So, it fits that if you have had a decade and a half of your formative years living as a male, I don’t think you can not have developed that sense of entitlement and the behaviour that comes with it. And that doesn’t even start to take into consideration comorbid mental health conditions.

On 6th-10th May the Nazis burned the research library of a man who was both gay and Jewish. They didn't kill him, interestingly enough. One of his doctor colleagues from the institute who had pioneered early "sex change" surgical techniques later joined the Nazi party. It appears he just liked performing unethical medical experiments on humans and wasn't fussy about who was paying him to do so.

Around six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis and most of their names are known because the Nazis kept meticulous records.

It would be Holocaust denial to deny that the Jews were targeted by the Nazis because there is incontrovertible proof that they were. Not just the 6 million murdered people but documentary evidence of the Nazis specifically saying that they were targeting Jewish people.

It's not Holocaust denial to ask whether similar proof exists that trans people were specifically targeted by the Nazis, particularly in light of the fact that hardly anyone who could credibly be described as trans was actually murdered by the Nazis. If you're going to continue to fling around accusations of Holocaust denial without actually furnishing any proof, we will draw our own conclusions from that.

It is incredibly disrespectful to Jewish people, the gay community and other groups who were actually specifically targeted by the Nazis (with ample proof to show that this was actually the case) to claim that trans people were also specifically targeted when there does not appear to be any solid evidence that they were.

When you consider how much performance must need to be maintained in the attempt for someone to convince people that they are a different sex than they materially are, I guess it becomes their life. It is like emulating what some people consider is a sign of intellect, impenetrable prose, to disguise the lack of substance to a theoretical position. We know there are people who write like this and I think it is done deliberately by some writers to provoke discussion because people interpret things differently. I have seen a few different posters do this as a method to provoke negative feedback that they can then use for their own needs.

Another aspect that may come from a life lived performing, is instinctively using dramatic, catastrophic language devices wrapped around a concrete core of emotional manipulation, either to attempt to obfuscate or to enhance depending on the specific situation. Whereas many people are highly sensitive to manipulation and simply reject that attempt to manipulate. We see this manipulation though in quite a number of activists.

I suppose is why generally women are hardening their stances to a very short cycle before the ‘no’ is bluntly stated. Because we have seen the manipulation all before. Some parents or people working with young children quickly recognise it.
.

do you have any more language policing you'd like to get in tonight or shall we leave it there?

its not language policing to call out lies

Then you haven't done a holocaust denial in this thread. Thankyou

this thread….interesting mealy mouthed non apology

The discussion about the holocaust is certainly a partially successful attempt to distract from non-consensual sex discussions. That abrupt pivot is delivering more than whiplash.

asking people not to start arguing that trans people weren't victims of Nazi atrocities is definitely the most insulting.

For the record and to clarify for people on here - not that I think for a second that any sane person reading this exchange actually believes it - I have never said that trans people weren't victims of Nazi atrocities.

It's been implied that I have. Several times, and here above again. I've asked for evidence of my words/posts and nothing has been forthcoming. Nothing. Because there is nothing.

Because if she were to start actively claiming trans people were not victims of the holocaust then that would be a very, very bad look on any thread, but especially bad on one where we are trying to disprove any kind of involvement with the far right.

Well, "she" isn't about to start actively claiming that. Because "she" doesn't think that, and because "she" has a hell of a lot more insight into the Holocaust and German history than that poster will ever, ever have. From first- and second-hand accounts from family members. Not simply plucking a photo out of the archives that I think supports my "cause", but actually doesn't. I can't even be bothered to explain to BH why that photo doesn't support what BH thinks it does.

This is a clear attempt to shoe-horn in another mention of the far right. In a post about the Holocaust of all things.

What's happening here (amongst other things) is an attempt to exploit the vulnerabilities of me and others. What was it Datun said about teenagers?
BH has identified a "weak spot" and is determined to keep pressing at it. Perhaps to give me/us a taste of our own medicine somehow? Well, tough shit. I've experienced worse face-to-face. And there's a word for people who exploit other people's heritage to score points.

We have seen on this thread how words have been twisted, how viewpoints have been twisted, and how reality has been twisted. There is no reasoning with somebody like this. We've all wasted our breath.

The thread is coming to a close. So in answer to the original question a long time ago: no. Women do not want males in our spaces, sports and services. Males caused this situation ("transvestigating") so males are the ones responsible for stopping it. All males, even the special ones.