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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:04

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 11:14

Brilliant, stirring words.

Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

"Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women."

Oh gosh.... here we are with the hyperbole and the emotional manipulation again.

You cannot raise a coherent, logically consistent argument in answer to so many women's posts carefully explaining the issues, and you now have read a post that discusses why your own repetitive pleas of 'it is complicated and it is nuanced' don't work all you can say is 'well, it is all about only supporting 'one particular type of woman'.'

Yeah, it is. It is about supporting female people, however they identity. And it is not about supporting male people.

But what is glaringly obvious is the inherent misogyny, intended or not, in characterising women who are campaigning to prioritise the sex based rights that they need a group who is "dedicating their lives to brutalising" a group you describe as marginalised. That is misogyny right there.

And it is a silencing tactic that revolves around shaming those women who are legitimately campaigning. Do you really think your tactics are working to convince people?

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 16:13

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:04

"Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women."

Oh gosh.... here we are with the hyperbole and the emotional manipulation again.

You cannot raise a coherent, logically consistent argument in answer to so many women's posts carefully explaining the issues, and you now have read a post that discusses why your own repetitive pleas of 'it is complicated and it is nuanced' don't work all you can say is 'well, it is all about only supporting 'one particular type of woman'.'

Yeah, it is. It is about supporting female people, however they identity. And it is not about supporting male people.

But what is glaringly obvious is the inherent misogyny, intended or not, in characterising women who are campaigning to prioritise the sex based rights that they need a group who is "dedicating their lives to brutalising" a group you describe as marginalised. That is misogyny right there.

And it is a silencing tactic that revolves around shaming those women who are legitimately campaigning. Do you really think your tactics are working to convince people?

Are transgender people marginalised in society?

You seem to be claiming they aren't.

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 16:16

Hey BH, get back to your rewrite!

Show me how they ARE marginalised.

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 16:21

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 16:16

Hey BH, get back to your rewrite!

Show me how they ARE marginalised.

It's a new meaning of marginalised, more akin to being part of the top 1%.

How else to explain over-representation in BBC 100 Women, Sportswoman of the Year, guests on WH etc.?

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:37

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 16:13

Are transgender people marginalised in society?

You seem to be claiming they aren't.

Would you like to tell us in detail how they are marginalised please?

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:38

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 16:13

Are transgender people marginalised in society?

You seem to be claiming they aren't.

And how surprising that you had nothing to say about the rest of the post....

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 17:09

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:38

And how surprising that you had nothing to say about the rest of the post....

I try to remember that someone who posted on FWR said that they have a relative who works with Freda W and that FW is quiet as a church mouse in work (paraphrase) and nothing like the persona on display on SM or in the panel with Helen Joyce.

I wonder if BH is similar.

As a tangent to this, I'm thinking through Gia's exploration of metamodernism in Severance as an analogy of 21st century digital identities.

giagia.substack.com/p/apple-tvs-severance-as-an-analogy?

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:15

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 17:09

I try to remember that someone who posted on FWR said that they have a relative who works with Freda W and that FW is quiet as a church mouse in work (paraphrase) and nothing like the persona on display on SM or in the panel with Helen Joyce.

I wonder if BH is similar.

As a tangent to this, I'm thinking through Gia's exploration of metamodernism in Severance as an analogy of 21st century digital identities.

giagia.substack.com/p/apple-tvs-severance-as-an-analogy?

That is interesting.

I remember a poster who said that about Montgomery. I don't recall someone saying that about FW. I wonder if some of the very vocal male people are only very vocal on the social media 'stage' so to speak.

Datun · 03/12/2024 17:16

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 17:09

I try to remember that someone who posted on FWR said that they have a relative who works with Freda W and that FW is quiet as a church mouse in work (paraphrase) and nothing like the persona on display on SM or in the panel with Helen Joyce.

I wonder if BH is similar.

As a tangent to this, I'm thinking through Gia's exploration of metamodernism in Severance as an analogy of 21st century digital identities.

giagia.substack.com/p/apple-tvs-severance-as-an-analogy?

BH has said they live a life of isolation seeing only doctors and having the sword of Damocles hanging over them in terms of post transition health issues.

But then more or less denied it, tho!

Circumferences · 03/12/2024 17:17

I'm sure a lot of men are nice as pie when you meet them in person but they live with a burning misogyny in their hearts....

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 17:30

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 17:15

That is interesting.

I remember a poster who said that about Montgomery. I don't recall someone saying that about FW. I wonder if some of the very vocal male people are only very vocal on the social media 'stage' so to speak.

Maybe it was KM.

live a life of isolation seeing only doctors and having the sword of Damocles hanging over them in terms of post transition health issues.
But then more or less denied it, tho!

Good grief, that would be very isolating. And one would wonder when the brutalising events occur within such a restricted life. And then I wonder about the various ways in which people are instructed to believe that their families wish them harm or hate them and only their remote (YT, Tumblr, Reddit) family can understand them.

In that case, I hope it helpful to BH to receive so much inboxed support (if I understand previous claims correctly).

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 17:47

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 16:37

Would you like to tell us in detail how they are marginalised please?

Do you disagree with the UN office of the high commissioner?

The struggle of trans and gender-diverse persons

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:06

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 17:47

Do you disagree with the UN office of the high commissioner?

The struggle of trans and gender-diverse persons

I am asking for you to provide a concise list of protections that you are losing in the UK, in your own words please.

Edited for precision.

wincarwoo · 03/12/2024 18:06

Is your point: Most mariginalised = permission to have access all areas?

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 18:14

It's almost as if BH is resorting to attempts at gotchas that involve appropriating the experience of transgender people in other parts of the world and in societies where intersections of marginalised identities and experiences may be very different.

I might as easily ask if some posters presume to privilege their perspective over that of Reem Alsalem?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5222071-fabulous-reem-alsalem-on-it-again-onslaught-on-women-specific-language

Fabulous Reem Alsalem on it again - onslaught on women specific language | Mumsnet

She’s so brilliant!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5222071-fabulous-reem-alsalem-on-it-again-onslaught-on-women-specific-language

Datun · 03/12/2024 18:15

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 17:30

Maybe it was KM.

live a life of isolation seeing only doctors and having the sword of Damocles hanging over them in terms of post transition health issues.
But then more or less denied it, tho!

Good grief, that would be very isolating. And one would wonder when the brutalising events occur within such a restricted life. And then I wonder about the various ways in which people are instructed to believe that their families wish them harm or hate them and only their remote (YT, Tumblr, Reddit) family can understand them.

In that case, I hope it helpful to BH to receive so much inboxed support (if I understand previous claims correctly).

Well it was all the more strange that BH was an advocate of 'trans children', too. Given how bad it seemed to have gone for BH.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:22

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 18:14

It's almost as if BH is resorting to attempts at gotchas that involve appropriating the experience of transgender people in other parts of the world and in societies where intersections of marginalised identities and experiences may be very different.

I might as easily ask if some posters presume to privilege their perspective over that of Reem Alsalem?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5222071-fabulous-reem-alsalem-on-it-again-onslaught-on-women-specific-language

I know. Right!

I read the link and thought... hang on a moment....

And, despite the focus on toilets on the other thread, there was nothing in that link that said that a sub group of male people should consider it a human right to access female toilets if they wished.

Maybe it was meant to be a Gish gallop manoeuvre type thing and we were supposed to follow every single link to keep us distracted from the fact that no answer has been forthcoming.

I mean on another thread we have asked repeatedly for a list of 'protections' that male people with gender identities are losing. And it is never detailed and specific to the UK. Except for medical treatment.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:23

Datun · 03/12/2024 18:15

Well it was all the more strange that BH was an advocate of 'trans children', too. Given how bad it seemed to have gone for BH.

Apparently it has gone very well indeed, Datun.

Datun · 03/12/2024 18:29

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:23

Apparently it has gone very well indeed, Datun.

Depends what point BH is trying to make. Contradictions abound!

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:34

Datun · 03/12/2024 18:29

Depends what point BH is trying to make. Contradictions abound!

This is true. We have seen this phenomenon.

popeydokey · 03/12/2024 18:34

Yes, it's not clear whether BH agrees with us that there is something female about a woman, or agrees with us that gender identity is completely separate from physical sex.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 00:14

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 18:06

I am asking for you to provide a concise list of protections that you are losing in the UK, in your own words please.

Edited for precision.

Edited

Ok in my own words:

Potential/Past attacks:

-EA2010 protections under threat
An EA2010 defanging amendment means loss of access to same sex provisions outside of proportional exceptions. Complete loss or substantial reclassification within EA2010 covers all associated protections related to gender reassignment. Attempts to corrupt the original intent of the EA2010 have thus far failed but have been made and likely will be made again.

-GRA2004 under threat
There are active campaigns to repeal the GRA which have been ongoing for a decade. A GRA repeal would presumably mean reversion to Corbett v Corbett re: birth certificates which themselves, aside from the loss of all other associated GRA protections, mean a general loss of protection from outing by default.

-NHS single sex facilities for trans people under threat
NHS provision of single sex facilities routinely used by trans people is proposed to be unceremoniously stripped by policy change and replaced with an unworkable non-solution that has no realistic chance of manifesting under NHS resourcing issues. It's a back-door loophole block on EA2010 provision.

Active/Current:

-GRA unfit for purpose
The GRA itself has already been found to be severely lagging behind European Commission standards for human rights, ranking the lowest possible as 'least accessible procedures'. A public consultation was launched in 2018 with a view toward reform which received clear and positive feedback from the public but the government decided to disregard the results because it didn't like them.

-EHRC found to be deliberately attacking human rights of trans women
Despite being an organisation literally named the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the EHRC was found by a UN investigation in 2023 to have been deliberately acting with the objective of reducing human rights protections for transgender women, including producing material intended for release that would have actively spread misinformation about legal provisions for trans people.

-Sex while stealth is illegal
Stealth trans people, despite being afforded privacy and protection from discrimination by the GRA and EA, can be and have been prosecuted for having consensual sex in the UK while comprehensively retaining that privacy.

Since 2013 a legal precedent has existed that effectively allows stealth trans people to be prosecuted for having sex if their partner then decides to press charges for 'sex by deception'. This was confirmed and successfully prosecuted again in 2016.

That's right. You can go to prison in the UK for the crime of having sex while stealth. Why you would put yourself into a consensual intimate situation with someone who presents a clear danger to your wellbeing if discovery to begin with is something I cannot fathom, but it's happened more than once and established a clear legal precedent.

Having sex while stealth would also be classed as a sexual offence and thus force a stealth trans person into a prison ward, potentially for life, that would immediately out them and present an extreme and ongoing danger to their safety.

-Ongoing circumvention of 1999 health authority ban on restriction of gender-affirming surgery
It has been illegal for health authorities to place a blanket ban on gender-affirming surgery since 1999. Despite this technical prohibition on a ban, in practice it is almost impossible to prevent soft-bans through chronic underfunding and a refusal to provision an adequate service. Waiting times for access to NHS gender-affirming surgery have steadily grown from 5+ years to roughly equivalent to the length of a life sentence in prison. This constitutes an effective ban on NHS gender confirmation surgery going forward in everything but name.

-Complete ban on treatment for all gender incongruent youth under 16
Trans children have not been able to access treatment for four years and counting in the UK.

Access to gender affirming treatment for minors hasn't meaningfully existed for many years due to underfunding, political pressure and internal sabotage. It has not existed at all even on paper for under 16's since 2020 due to the Bell v Tavistock case - where a young woman misled clinicians over an extended period into granting her access to puberty blockers while over the age of 16. Paradoxically despite Bell's age at the time, they were banned for all under-16's instead until the policy was reversed soon afterward.

The NHS asked a respected clinician to head a review into adolescent services. The review took several years to complete but an interim report was released in 2022 which recommended improving failing services and commissioning further research urgently.

The service handling the provision of treatment for GI youth itself - which had been doing so for three decades - was closed in 2022 on Cass's recommendation to replace it with multiple local services that were better resourced and better suited to treat patients holistically in a timely fashion.

Despite her recommendations, the GIDS was closed with no realistic possibility of a functional replacement provided within the stated timescale. When replacement services were eventually created much later, they were confirmed by associated former staff to be little more than damage control and conversion therapy centres with no ability to actually assist children found likely to benefit from medication.

GAC in the form of puberty blockers - the concessionary gatekeeping alternative to CSH - was formally banned for all under 18's in 2024 even if patients have been led by desperation to seek private providers. This was accomplished via an automatic unchallengeable emergency ban without allowing for discussion as the final act of the previous government that then carried forward to the next government. It has been extended twice already.

The NHS has since stated that it would not ban the prescription of CSH for 16 year olds despite GnRH agonists - the concessionary gatekeeping measure - remaining banned for under 18's and existing gatekeeping policy requiring a year of GnRH agonist treatment prior to commencement of CSH treatment. It is currently unclear whether this has actually manifested as a reality or whether it is merely an on-paper possibility.

The clinician charged with heading the Cass Review has since gone on record to say that she hoped that "every young person who walks through the door should be included in some kind of proper research protocol" and hopes that for those "where there is a clear, clinical view" that the medical pathway is best will still receive treatment. She also stated that she believes that trans people exist and benefit from treatment in many cases, and that she considers it important that trans and non-trans outcomes for treatment pathways are considered to be equally valid.

No research protocols into the treatment of Gender Incongruent youth have materialised over the two and a half years since it was stated by Cass to be urgently necessary, and this is the only allowed route by which access can be granted to treatment. It is unlikely that any such protocols will be able to proceed in a meaningful fashion that will satisfy the requirements identified in the Cass Review without being found to breach international ethical guidelines.

The UK does, thus, not formally allow gender incongruent youth to receive any form of internationally recognised and widely accepted medical treatment under the age of 16 and has not done since 2020. This is despite the recommendations of the very review used as a pretext for a formal ban, which stipulated the urgent need for research and recommended treatment be available as part of a research protocol.

-Guidance against gender nonconformance for young children
In 2022 the NHS published restrictions that prevented pre-pubertal children from socially transitioning - i.e. defying stereotypically gendered modes of expression and dress applied to their birth sex - unless evidence of clinically significant distress is present.

To put that into perspective, young children in the UK are technically banned from wearing non-stereotypical clothes or asking people not to refer to them as 'he' or 'she' unless a doctor says they are very sad. Let us recall that the waiting list for the Tavi in 2022 was around three years until the 'hello' appointment.

Trans girls have, for reference, been banned from the Girls' Day School Trust since 2021.

-Pink and blue toilets a requirement since 2024
Legislation is being introduced stipulating that new buildings (with some exceptions) in England MUST have single-sex toilets. There is no such requirement for buildings to have gender neutral toilets, thus by default excluding non-binary people.

Illustrative Stats:

Between 2017 and 2018 545 violent hate crimes were committed against trans people in the UK.
Hate crimes against trans people rose 56% between 2021 and 2022.
Hate crimes against trans people rose 11% in 2023.
19% of trans people are victims of domestic abuse.

What an incredible green and pleasant future you've achieved so far for trans people. Plenty of room to make it worse in the years to come, though.

Enough4me · 04/12/2024 00:28

Trans is just a label. Behind it are females and males.

Non binary is a label. Behind it are females and males.

Single sex facilities work.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 07:56

An EA2010 defanging amendment means loss of access to same sex provisions outside of proportional exceptions

Same-sex provisions? Can you explain how and why as I don't think this is correct. I assume you mean provisions provided for people of the same sex as the person wishing to use them, (not anything to do with homosexuality or anything).

NHS provision of single sex facilities routinely used by trans people is proposed to be unceremoniously stripped by policy change and replaced with an unworkable non-solution that has no realistic chance of manifesting under NHS resourcing issues

I think you have this wrong. Trans people can continue to access spaces for their sex. What do you mean by "unceremoniously"? What change do you think they are replacing single-sex service with?
(Unless you have conflated sex and gender, but obviously doing that erases trans people so I assume not! )

Access to gender affirming treatment for minors

Why does changing sex characteristics affirm gender unless you believe men are male, women are female? Do you believe this?

The UK does, thus, not formally allow gender incongruent youth to receive any form of internationally recognised and widely accepted medical treatment under the age of 16 and has not done since 2020

That's not true is it.

Can I ask, butterfly, as it will help me understand what you write - by "trans people" do you mean "people that wish to be the opposite sex"?

That would make more sense from what you have written.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:00

To put that into perspective, young children in the UK are technically banned from wearing non-stereotypical clothes or asking people not to refer to them as 'he' or 'she' unless a doctor says they are very sad.

Just to be clear then, this is what you consider "transitioning" for kids.

And you think those things dictate, or are somehow related to where the child is literally a boy or girl? Yes or no?

Anyway again it's untrue. Loads of kids near me are not "banned" from wearing any types of clothes. I see them day in and day out and no-one has a problem with it, because no-one is sexist enough to think that clothes make you any gender or sex.

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