TERFs are not the problem

[niadainud]

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

Who's "we"? 🤔

my experiences have overwhelmingly been that we can find a common ground once we speak in person and the reality of my own existence becomes clear.

Or maybe this is female socialisation/ self preservation. Some women don't say things that might make male people angry because of our own experiences of the way angry males might behave. I'm not saying that you would behave that way, this is not intended to be a personal attack, merely an observation. It's the for the same reason that many of us women prefer single sex spaces in the first place. There is a power imbalance between males and females which comes from our sexed bodies not from our own perceptions of gender.

In other words people may not say what they really think to your face so you perceive that to be common ground.

The reality of your existence is exactly that , the reality of how others perceive you is up to them, you can't claim to know how others perceive you, because it's not possible to know.

ahhh.... the constant plea for compassion and inclusivity. Whether an outright plea or a supposedly aspirational aligning with those with it.

If someone's claimed identity requires compassion and obscuring philosophical belief so that that 'identity' becomes in some way real, it says pretty much all we need to know about that identity. And yes, there is no doubt at all that people who don't support a claimed identity that means female people are harmed in the support of, would be considered 'deeply unpleasant people to avoid'.

I have said it before and I will keep saying it. It must be a real headfuck never knowing if any of the people who say to your face that they believe you are who you say you are actually do believe. And particularly if you are reliant on them as loved ones. What that must do to you over time when you have made that identity central to your entire being must leave you never being able to trust another person again.

You wouldn't know we. We goes to another school.

The ridicule is a useful tool

Well, perhaps if it worked.

The women on this board have seen it all before, I'm afraid.

It's a pattern of behaviour; when faced with requests to listen to women outside of their friends and family (those who aren't apprehensive to state their boundaries?) accusations of transphobia and bigotry are thrown; ridicule and other insults (bores!) It's so predictable. And it doesn't work in convincing anyone of anything. You just come across as spiteful and unable to listen.

I have a lot more sympathy for fellow feminists practicing a strain that happens to exclude me; my experiences have overwhelmingly been that we can find a common ground once we speak in person and the reality of my own existence becomes clear.

You can of course think what you like about feminism; that doesn't include telling feminists what kind of feminism is palatable to you and therefore meets with your approval.

Nothing like a bit of malespaining about what feminism should and shouldn't be about. It is a gift that just keeps giving and giving and giving.

my experiences have overwhelmingly been that we can find a common ground once we speak in person and the reality of my own existence becomes clear.

Good lord. Some people just cannot stop centering themselves.

Also butterfly, you've been on here for years, you've never managed to convince anyone.

Of course you exist butters, you’re a mass occupying space and time

you’re still not a woman though

But Datun.... it is not 'in person'. It is a special magic interaction and seeing the person in real life to apparently change hearts... to see the 'reality' and all that.

I often see the argument made that if only we evil ignorant terves ever met or spoke to a trans woman we'd understand, but that ignores the fact that many if not most of us already have.

Or not only that we already have, but that the more interactions we have, the more we educate ourselves, and the better we get to know transpeople, the more convinced we are that transwomen are most definitely not women and transmen are definitely not men.

I have two transwomen family friends - have known one since I was born (friend of one of my aunts) and the other since I was a new graduate (who was at my wedding).

They both definitely are real and exist, and neither of them is a woman.

When TRAs come across as hopelessly male when they're anonymous online, God only knows what they'd be like in real life.

And wasn't there a report that said the more familiar people became, the less they supported it?

it doesn't really tally with the more you meet, the better you'll feel!

The feedback I regularly receive indicates otherwise.

Does this feedback go to another school by any chance?

You are welcome to believe that and keep saying it if it makes you feel better. I shall meanwhile happily bask in the warm affirming glow of an inbox full of thankyou messages and know that what I'm saying is making a difference, however small.

butterfly 's total lack of ability to engage at even the most basic level with women who are genuinely interested to learn about TW has reinforced my gender criticism more than anything.

I find it very consistent (and faintly amusing) that they would be ignorant or uncaring enough to beg women to do as I have.

We've asked you the things we want to know, and you can't answer honestly.

Keep on showing us who you are. That's all we need.

Ah yes, the mysterious cabal of secret inboxers. Too feart to actually defend their position on a board where they're completely anonymous but perfectly happy to fuck over women because, you know, mustn't hurt men's special lady feelings!

These secret trans worship people who frequent the Mumsnet feminism boards....

My inbox is full of 'em myselves I tell ya. Arr ye hear me right.

The reality of [people with transgender identities]'s existence is indeed very clear. It is clear that that permitting the presence of male people, whatever their gender identities, in spaces that are traditionally female only, will systematically exclude some women from those spaces.

I meant precisely what I said. You're not convincing anyone. You have no argument.

AIBU regularly threads get around 5% of people thinking that women should have no rights, and that women and little girls should be forced to disrobe in front of, and share their private spaces with, adult men.

We know people think like this. You don't need to convince them.

Oh come off it. The genuine interest to learn about trans women died about a decade ago.

This board is so infamous for its toxic brand that workplaces started dropping collaboration initiatives with mumsnet over it half a decade ago.

Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

All men, even those in heels, should be welcome into male facilities (real inclusively!!).