TERFs are not the problem

[niadainud]

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

Eliminating make violence against women will take multiple generations if it can ever be achieved at all, but TRAs want access to women's changing rooms right now.

Yes, of course, but I don't think you ever hear about them (TRAs) being pissed off with AGPs giving other transwomen a bad name. Why not look within their own community?

I think you might be mischaracterizing the nature of the "Trans Rights Activists" movement as opposed to everyday trans women. Trans Rights Activism as a movement is a men's sexual rights movement at the end of the day. For TRAs, taking issue with rapists, predatory men, and men who get off on being humiliated as though they were women would be counterproductive.

TRAs actually deny vehemently that there is even such a thing as autogynephilia.

but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I think you're new to this?

Women don't necessarily care if a man is predatory in one way or another, or not. Because honestly, how can you tell? My Nigel is lovely. He's not a predator.

It's just that they're men. That's all.

I don't want to share toilets with men because men are more likely to piss on the toilet seat, because they piss standing up. Whereas I piss sitting down. I don't want piss on my thighs.

That's one reason. Being predatory or not is obviously another reason.

There are many reasons to need single sex spaces.

Tbh where I am plenty of women get pee on the seats because they squat and won't sit on them properly or use paper seat covers. But I don't want to use toilets at the same time as men regardless.

Because the autogynephiles are running the show and the ones who just want to be seen as women and not draw attention to themselves are poorly cut out for telling the predators to sod off.

Fair point. One of the most staunch TRAs I know isn't trans, but is male.

I get you OP- it's hypocritical for them to say we need to hide in your loos cos the nasty men might attack us. Then call us bigots when we say we don't want men in our loos cos any of them could be the nasty attacking kind.
If trans people can't tell who's going to attack them why are they so enraged that we can't either?
Obviously most of it is fakery and the activists want to get into our loos for other reasons, but there's plenty of threads on that already.

No need to be patronising.

Of course you can't tell. But if it weren't for the propensity of certain men to behave in a certain way then a large part (although not all) of the objection to transwomen in women's spaces would not be relevant.

Obviously this is entirely hypothetical, but it just struck me as interesting that all the ire of TRAs is directed outwards rather than towards AGPs etc. Understandable, but slightly hypocritical nevertheless.

I don't want to share my toilets or other single-sex spaces with men anymore than the next (sane) woman, but it's disingenuous to imply that all would be fine were it not for those nasty TERFs.

So it is happening, but they're just not the ones shouting the loudest?

Of course. I mean who ever heard of men having fetishes?!

Well, male violence is really the be-all and end-all of everything and eliminating it (as if!) would obviously clear a multitude of things.
I don't think that's the concern with TWs tho. There are smaller and individual problems which we need to deal with.
Yes, if it was a toss-up between all male violence being permanently eliminated AND men being banned from our changing rooms and toilets, yes I'd go for the former, but it isn't!

There are some male people who ID as women who call out AGPs; state clearly they are male/you can’t change sex; & who don’t use women’s facilities/participate in women’s sports etc. They get attacked by TRAs every time they speak up - sometimes they get threatened with violence, more usually they’re told they’re colluding in the genocide of transpeople & when they’re not spared despite their treachery their death will be celebrated.

There’s also a more vocal group who try to argue they deserve ongoing access to women’s spaces because they have gender dysphoria & have had their genitalia surgically altered to try to resemble that of the opposite sex. Much wailing about the risk of their being raped if they use the men’s loo. (Generally linked to an unshakeable conviction they “pass” as women, unlike the AGPs. 6’4” & built like tank, but they insist they are the most vulnerable…) Their attacks on AGPs are generally a recent thing, in an attempt to push back against the pushback. Pure self-interest.

The men you described as "true trans" don't need to shout to get what they want because they're getting what they want by letting the men with fetishes aggressively lead the charge to claim female spaces and rights.

Besides, even before AGP became the huge thing it is now, those "true trans" men who used women's spaces and claimed to be women never asked women if it was okay for them to do that - they just did it and didn't give a shit if we objected or not.

Blair White is on our side until we tell Blair to stay out of female spaces and then Blair is definitely not on our side anymore. Blair still wants something from us, just a bit less than other men claiming to be women.

I beg you, please actually talk to some trans women one day.

Ah yes, Operation: let them speak.

I completely agree.

LoL we did and I mean you’re always here butters doing your Stirling work underlining exactly why TW are utter clueless about women’s lived reality & aren’t ever going to understand the effect they as men have on women

Yeah, that's the thing see, I didn't really feel like chatting when I was a young child and kept bumping into a bloke dressed up like a woman masturbating in the playground toilets - I mostly just ran in utter terror.

I remember a little while ago there were a couple of adverts; Barclays using a TW and McCains using a drag queen advertising banking services and Smiley Face potatoes. One suggested they needed a loan as they wanted Big Tits. The other arranged the spuds and referenced Big Knockers. The movement aims are all there in b&w. AGP on prime time.

What really disgusts me is that the men who have these fetishes can't even do it quietly and subtly.

I know someone who is trans, queer, they/them - all the usual stuff. Their Facebook page is full of vomitous comments like, "i would like to thank [name of partner] for everything She is and everything She does. i love Her." I.e. look everyone, we're in a Dom/sun relationship and I'm going to make sure everyone knows that with my meaningful capitalization!

@ButterflyHatched I saw some trans "women" in the toilets at a main line railway station. The staff too afraid to ask them to leave.

transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

Isla Bryson is a transwoman.

To put it another way - what is the difference between a 'real' transwoman and any other man claiming to be a woman?