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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:04

Legislation is being introduced stipulating that new buildings (with some exceptions) in England MUST have single-sex toilets. There is no such requirement for buildings to have gender neutral toilets, thus by default excluding non-binary people.

You've contradicted yourself. If a space is single-sex, then it's any gender, by definition.

I genuinely, honestly, find your conflation of sex and gender baffling. Are you doing it on purpose? Why? Or do you think they are one and the same thing?

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:23

Could you try again, but only writing things that are true and clearly communicate what they are supposed to mean?

I know you don't think "children can't have any medical care whatsoever if they are female and wear trousers", so can you have another go? I don't want to dismiss your concerns because you've not been able to articulate them clearly - that shouldn't be a barrier to understanding rights imo.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/12/2024 08:24

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:04

Legislation is being introduced stipulating that new buildings (with some exceptions) in England MUST have single-sex toilets. There is no such requirement for buildings to have gender neutral toilets, thus by default excluding non-binary people.

You've contradicted yourself. If a space is single-sex, then it's any gender, by definition.

I genuinely, honestly, find your conflation of sex and gender baffling. Are you doing it on purpose? Why? Or do you think they are one and the same thing?

Of course Butters is doing it in purpose. They have form for it. It’s deliberate af. By constantly conflating sex and gender buttsrs can argue whatever butters wants because you’re never sure whether butters actually means.

still I’m sure they are enjoying all the attention they’re getting on this thread

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:29

It's just weird that they seem to want to convince us of... something... (god knows what) and have clearly taken the time to try and write a long post, but don't care whether their own words are honest or not?

like I said, just keep showing us this is all you have. I'd have sympathy if there was any coherent argument or position in there, put across in good faith.

wincarwoo · 04/12/2024 08:38

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 08:29

It's just weird that they seem to want to convince us of... something... (god knows what) and have clearly taken the time to try and write a long post, but don't care whether their own words are honest or not?

like I said, just keep showing us this is all you have. I'd have sympathy if there was any coherent argument or position in there, put across in good faith.

We all know what. That men have the right to be anywhere unchallenged.

That trans identifying males are the most marginalised and therefore deserve the first point.

Obfuscation and word salad is one way of attempting to do this.

It clearly has no effect on this board. Quite why butterfly thinks it will is anyone's guess.

Derails are always useful for lurkers.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 08:49

Brilliant, stirring words.

Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

Yes, heaven forbid someone should focus on women's rights only.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 08:59

Sex while stealth is illegal
Stealth trans people, despite being afforded privacy and protection from discrimination by the GRA and EA, can be and have been prosecuted for having consensual sex in the UK while comprehensively retaining that privacy.

Since 2013 a legal precedent has existed that effectively allows stealth trans people to be prosecuted for having sex if their partner then decides to press charges for 'sex by deception'. This was confirmed and successfully prosecuted again in 2016.

Yes, tricking people into a sexual act without their consent is sexual assault. Not everything revolves around what "trans people" want.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 09:01

There is no such requirement for buildings to have gender neutral toilets, thus by default excluding non-binary people.

How does it exclude them? They have a sex.

Enough4me · 04/12/2024 09:23

Whenever someone writes a lot of words about gender, I always think, do they notice how animals can look at each other even at a distance without looking at genitals and know that it's the sex they want to be intimate with?
Like sex is completely natural from the whole body, right down to bones, to cells and we animals see it!
It's why single sex facilities work so well.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 09:24

-Pink and blue toilets a requirement since 2024

I hope they are proposing to pay for the paint!

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 09:24

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 00:14

Ok in my own words:

Potential/Past attacks:

-EA2010 protections under threat
An EA2010 defanging amendment means loss of access to same sex provisions outside of proportional exceptions. Complete loss or substantial reclassification within EA2010 covers all associated protections related to gender reassignment. Attempts to corrupt the original intent of the EA2010 have thus far failed but have been made and likely will be made again.

-GRA2004 under threat
There are active campaigns to repeal the GRA which have been ongoing for a decade. A GRA repeal would presumably mean reversion to Corbett v Corbett re: birth certificates which themselves, aside from the loss of all other associated GRA protections, mean a general loss of protection from outing by default.

-NHS single sex facilities for trans people under threat
NHS provision of single sex facilities routinely used by trans people is proposed to be unceremoniously stripped by policy change and replaced with an unworkable non-solution that has no realistic chance of manifesting under NHS resourcing issues. It's a back-door loophole block on EA2010 provision.

Active/Current:

-GRA unfit for purpose
The GRA itself has already been found to be severely lagging behind European Commission standards for human rights, ranking the lowest possible as 'least accessible procedures'. A public consultation was launched in 2018 with a view toward reform which received clear and positive feedback from the public but the government decided to disregard the results because it didn't like them.

-EHRC found to be deliberately attacking human rights of trans women
Despite being an organisation literally named the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the EHRC was found by a UN investigation in 2023 to have been deliberately acting with the objective of reducing human rights protections for transgender women, including producing material intended for release that would have actively spread misinformation about legal provisions for trans people.

-Sex while stealth is illegal
Stealth trans people, despite being afforded privacy and protection from discrimination by the GRA and EA, can be and have been prosecuted for having consensual sex in the UK while comprehensively retaining that privacy.

Since 2013 a legal precedent has existed that effectively allows stealth trans people to be prosecuted for having sex if their partner then decides to press charges for 'sex by deception'. This was confirmed and successfully prosecuted again in 2016.

That's right. You can go to prison in the UK for the crime of having sex while stealth. Why you would put yourself into a consensual intimate situation with someone who presents a clear danger to your wellbeing if discovery to begin with is something I cannot fathom, but it's happened more than once and established a clear legal precedent.

Having sex while stealth would also be classed as a sexual offence and thus force a stealth trans person into a prison ward, potentially for life, that would immediately out them and present an extreme and ongoing danger to their safety.

-Ongoing circumvention of 1999 health authority ban on restriction of gender-affirming surgery
It has been illegal for health authorities to place a blanket ban on gender-affirming surgery since 1999. Despite this technical prohibition on a ban, in practice it is almost impossible to prevent soft-bans through chronic underfunding and a refusal to provision an adequate service. Waiting times for access to NHS gender-affirming surgery have steadily grown from 5+ years to roughly equivalent to the length of a life sentence in prison. This constitutes an effective ban on NHS gender confirmation surgery going forward in everything but name.

-Complete ban on treatment for all gender incongruent youth under 16
Trans children have not been able to access treatment for four years and counting in the UK.

Access to gender affirming treatment for minors hasn't meaningfully existed for many years due to underfunding, political pressure and internal sabotage. It has not existed at all even on paper for under 16's since 2020 due to the Bell v Tavistock case - where a young woman misled clinicians over an extended period into granting her access to puberty blockers while over the age of 16. Paradoxically despite Bell's age at the time, they were banned for all under-16's instead until the policy was reversed soon afterward.

The NHS asked a respected clinician to head a review into adolescent services. The review took several years to complete but an interim report was released in 2022 which recommended improving failing services and commissioning further research urgently.

The service handling the provision of treatment for GI youth itself - which had been doing so for three decades - was closed in 2022 on Cass's recommendation to replace it with multiple local services that were better resourced and better suited to treat patients holistically in a timely fashion.

Despite her recommendations, the GIDS was closed with no realistic possibility of a functional replacement provided within the stated timescale. When replacement services were eventually created much later, they were confirmed by associated former staff to be little more than damage control and conversion therapy centres with no ability to actually assist children found likely to benefit from medication.

GAC in the form of puberty blockers - the concessionary gatekeeping alternative to CSH - was formally banned for all under 18's in 2024 even if patients have been led by desperation to seek private providers. This was accomplished via an automatic unchallengeable emergency ban without allowing for discussion as the final act of the previous government that then carried forward to the next government. It has been extended twice already.

The NHS has since stated that it would not ban the prescription of CSH for 16 year olds despite GnRH agonists - the concessionary gatekeeping measure - remaining banned for under 18's and existing gatekeeping policy requiring a year of GnRH agonist treatment prior to commencement of CSH treatment. It is currently unclear whether this has actually manifested as a reality or whether it is merely an on-paper possibility.

The clinician charged with heading the Cass Review has since gone on record to say that she hoped that "every young person who walks through the door should be included in some kind of proper research protocol" and hopes that for those "where there is a clear, clinical view" that the medical pathway is best will still receive treatment. She also stated that she believes that trans people exist and benefit from treatment in many cases, and that she considers it important that trans and non-trans outcomes for treatment pathways are considered to be equally valid.

No research protocols into the treatment of Gender Incongruent youth have materialised over the two and a half years since it was stated by Cass to be urgently necessary, and this is the only allowed route by which access can be granted to treatment. It is unlikely that any such protocols will be able to proceed in a meaningful fashion that will satisfy the requirements identified in the Cass Review without being found to breach international ethical guidelines.

The UK does, thus, not formally allow gender incongruent youth to receive any form of internationally recognised and widely accepted medical treatment under the age of 16 and has not done since 2020. This is despite the recommendations of the very review used as a pretext for a formal ban, which stipulated the urgent need for research and recommended treatment be available as part of a research protocol.

-Guidance against gender nonconformance for young children
In 2022 the NHS published restrictions that prevented pre-pubertal children from socially transitioning - i.e. defying stereotypically gendered modes of expression and dress applied to their birth sex - unless evidence of clinically significant distress is present.

To put that into perspective, young children in the UK are technically banned from wearing non-stereotypical clothes or asking people not to refer to them as 'he' or 'she' unless a doctor says they are very sad. Let us recall that the waiting list for the Tavi in 2022 was around three years until the 'hello' appointment.

Trans girls have, for reference, been banned from the Girls' Day School Trust since 2021.

-Pink and blue toilets a requirement since 2024
Legislation is being introduced stipulating that new buildings (with some exceptions) in England MUST have single-sex toilets. There is no such requirement for buildings to have gender neutral toilets, thus by default excluding non-binary people.

Illustrative Stats:

Between 2017 and 2018 545 violent hate crimes were committed against trans people in the UK.
Hate crimes against trans people rose 56% between 2021 and 2022.
Hate crimes against trans people rose 11% in 2023.
19% of trans people are victims of domestic abuse.

What an incredible green and pleasant future you've achieved so far for trans people. Plenty of room to make it worse in the years to come, though.

Thank you for taking the time and providing an answer. I will likely come back look at these today in detail. However, it seems clear that much of what you have written involves single sex spaces and your demand that you be included as a male person in female single sex spaces.

And what you have called 'life saving treatment' elsewhere. Treatment that you have not yet shown evidence to support it improving the mental health of the majority of patients. Yet you have tried to discredit the Cass Report and have been clearly very upset that your personal interview with them did not give strong evidence to change the outcome of the report. We have dealt with this on numerous threads.

Unless you can provide us with the links to the evidence that does discredit the Cass findings and recommendations, you are merely now just advocating for people to be harmed.

Addressing single sex spaces.

-Pink and blue toilets a requirement since 2024
-EA2010 protections under threat
-NHS single sex facilities for trans people under threat

The reality is, your framing of female people wanting to have single sex spaces remain just that, single sex, as being an attack quite clearly signals that you have never understood that you should never have been using those spaces at all previously. And we can and I am sure will continue, to cycle around and around on that issue.

And if the European laws do not allow female people to have single sex spaces, then why should the EHRC be forced to lower the standard of rights for female people in that way? Just because the European law says it doesn't mean that it is a law that should be enacted here if female people are negatively impacted by it.

This though, 'Trans girls have, for reference, been banned from the Girls' Day School Trust since 2021'. We have had previous discussions about this. However, it really really is very clear now. You absolutely have no consideration for female children. At all. Yet, you pride yourself as being someone giving children and young people 'counsel' about gender. This comment about allowing male children to go to single sex female schools is a safeguarding red flag. It proves that you should be no where near any child or young person.

So to for your section on Sex while stealth is illegal.

What you are describing is a breach of consent. Similar to male access to female single sex spaces is a breach of 'consent' because those male people have not asked the users in the single sex space if they consent to you (general you) using it as a male person. The social contract to use female toilets was that it was limited to female people unless assisting a male child. It always was this until male people decided to change this.

If someone is not completely honest with a potential sex partner BEFORE intimacy about their sex, then it should be considered that full consent has not been given. I understand your dilemma here. However, it truly is a breach of consent.

So, in effect, by defending that people should be able to keep their sex private from sex partners, you are advocating for the removal of another person's consent for sex. I understand that you don't see it that way. However, I think we have established that just because you, personally, might not see something as it factually and materially is, doesn't remove the fact that it is material and objectively real and will abide despite your disbelief.

To be very blunt. You don't understand consent.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 09:28

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 08:59

Sex while stealth is illegal
Stealth trans people, despite being afforded privacy and protection from discrimination by the GRA and EA, can be and have been prosecuted for having consensual sex in the UK while comprehensively retaining that privacy.

Since 2013 a legal precedent has existed that effectively allows stealth trans people to be prosecuted for having sex if their partner then decides to press charges for 'sex by deception'. This was confirmed and successfully prosecuted again in 2016.

Yes, tricking people into a sexual act without their consent is sexual assault. Not everything revolves around what "trans people" want.

I was very surprised to see that raised Eresh. On a fucking feminist board.

We know that consent is just a one direction thing for some males. However, that some sub-groups think that having sex without full consent should be acceptable just for that sub-group is always shocking. Every time I see this I am shocked.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 09:37

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/12/2024 08:24

Of course Butters is doing it in purpose. They have form for it. It’s deliberate af. By constantly conflating sex and gender buttsrs can argue whatever butters wants because you’re never sure whether butters actually means.

still I’m sure they are enjoying all the attention they’re getting on this thread

Absolutely the attention is very much a key here.

However, for those reading along, and we are still getting some new eyes on this thread, what is great is the posts those attention seeking posts get in response. Whether it is your or other poster's words or drawn from other sources (like from Lorelei on twitter that Utopia posted last night), the responses are clear and informed or just inspirational.

I know it feels repetitive though. However, I also remember that when I first came to this board I didn't go and look at past threads where all this had been discussed unless someone linked it into a thread. So, having it all repeated was useful. And I do understand that there is an inconsistency in my thoughts there too. Because in saying all that, we should not be treated like information service providers. 😀

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 09:44

If it was anyone else saying "terfs want to stop people using same-sex services" my assumption would be that they'd actually just got the wrong end of the stick - got it totally switched around, like when they think a TW is a female person who wants to be male.

Hopefully Butters will be happy to learn that in fact no-one here wants to prevent people using spaces for people of their same sex.

Datun · 04/12/2024 09:46

Yes, butterfly never changes.

Unfettered access to women's spaces, no matter what, that children should have all the medication that has left butterfly personally 'spending a lifetime in almost complete crushing isolation unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers' and

... making it completely legal to trick people into sex without their consent.

I'm guessing this is just more of the 'convincing argument' !!

Still, at least we know what ' rights' butterfly thinks they should have.

I do love me a bit of sunlight in the morning

Datun · 04/12/2024 09:48

still I’m sure they are enjoying all the attention they’re getting on this thread

Absolutely. It's the entire point of their presence here, in my opinion.

Especially when they ramp up the ridiculousness. The sex by deceit thing, for instance. Bit fun and games with the wims.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 09:51

Yep.

Enough4me · 04/12/2024 09:52

Until a few years ago I think many people thought trans meant Hayley from Coronation street (a small sad looking woman). It was when they went for children that awareness started to change.

My mum recently told me about the growing issue that was worrying her - "children are being lied to, it's even in schools" - it's now mainstream.

(I work in the public sector and still cannot be fully honest. Plus I didn't think my mum would believe me).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 09:52

When you look at the reality of what's being demanded by trans activists - the actual acts behind the word salad - it seems to boil down to a few key issues:

The unfettered right to access women and girls when undressed, naked, on the toilet or ill in bed on a hospital ward - all times when women are vulnerable. Framing all objections to this as transphobia cements the complete erosion of women's boundaries and our rights to say no.

Defining children of any age as "trans" along with the right to access children below the age of consent, to gaslight them that their bodies are flawed and need transitioning despite everything we know about child development plus all the evidence about the long term harm this causes to children.

Along with the removal of all single sex sport for women.

Not really a socially acceptable set of demands is it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 09:54

Quite @MrsOvertonsWindow

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 10:07

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 09:52

When you look at the reality of what's being demanded by trans activists - the actual acts behind the word salad - it seems to boil down to a few key issues:

The unfettered right to access women and girls when undressed, naked, on the toilet or ill in bed on a hospital ward - all times when women are vulnerable. Framing all objections to this as transphobia cements the complete erosion of women's boundaries and our rights to say no.

Defining children of any age as "trans" along with the right to access children below the age of consent, to gaslight them that their bodies are flawed and need transitioning despite everything we know about child development plus all the evidence about the long term harm this causes to children.

Along with the removal of all single sex sport for women.

Not really a socially acceptable set of demands is it?

I expect that is why it is constantly hidden behind ambiguous claims and leveraging the experiences from places such as Brazil and the issues with transgender sex workers. And why links to non-specific rights statements are provided instead of stating clear facts.

When you pull the main points from the list provided, it really was:

Let male people access any space they want to access.
Don't ensure that children and young people have high quality evidence supported medical care, particularly for a philosophical belief.
Let a group of people have non-consensual sex legally.

It really is not a socially acceptable set of demands, and yet this is what we have been berated about for pages and pages and pages over two threads.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 10:17

Now that is an illuminating post, Butterfly.

Datun · 04/12/2024 10:18

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 09:52

When you look at the reality of what's being demanded by trans activists - the actual acts behind the word salad - it seems to boil down to a few key issues:

The unfettered right to access women and girls when undressed, naked, on the toilet or ill in bed on a hospital ward - all times when women are vulnerable. Framing all objections to this as transphobia cements the complete erosion of women's boundaries and our rights to say no.

Defining children of any age as "trans" along with the right to access children below the age of consent, to gaslight them that their bodies are flawed and need transitioning despite everything we know about child development plus all the evidence about the long term harm this causes to children.

Along with the removal of all single sex sport for women.

Not really a socially acceptable set of demands is it?

And These men claim it's their right.

Obviously, there have always been men who consider themselves above the law, above consent, above everything in general really.

But they've managed to make so many other people complicit.

'Let's leverage misogyny, because so many people will agree with it', was a good day at the office for whoever came up with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 10:51

Now that is an illuminating post, Butterfly.

As Datun said:

I do love me a bit of sunlight in the morning

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 11:04

Sunlight indeed.

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