TERFs are not the problem

[niadainud]

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

I beg of you @ButterflyHatched please actually listen to some women one day

Tangent: Not all snakes

I've lost the attribution in my notes (Joe Wells?) but do you remember this helpful guidance?

TV Idea: #NotAllSnakes Men who say "Not All Men" are introduced to a variety of snakes. Not all of them are venomous.

I do get your point Op. Adam Graham was just yet another male rapist. Isla Bryson was part of bringing down the Scottish First Minister.

On one hand you have Jo Rowling with her intelligent, well reasoned arguments and her witty one liners.

And then you have Isla Bryson in his leggings.

I wonder which one convinced more people? I suspect, in this case, a picture is worth more than a thousand words!

I interact with 2 TWs several times a week, one at work and one as part of a social group I'm in.

If anything it's only reinforced my TERFness and further peaked me.

I'm yet to meet one of these lesser spotted TWs who only want to quietly live their lives. Every one I've met in person has reinforced my issue with them.

Yes. I find the snake analogies fit rather well. A bit like come into the cage with hungry lions, only a few of them are not domesticated and as gentle as a domestic house cat and those love to jump on you and lick your face. But you won’t be able to tell which lion is tamed and gentle.

The reality is all male people using female single sex spaces (above about 8 years old) are an issue. Having their genitals removed and endless facial reconstructions do not change the fact that no male person who fully respects that female people need a space just for themselves, should be in those spaces.

I assume part of this pitch states that it's not obvious from the snakes' size or markings which ones are the venomous ones?

Of course it is disengenuous. No-one here thinks Terfs are the problem, we all know that men, however identified, are the problem. And the violence aspect is only one part of the argument against transwomen in women's spaces: privacy, dignity, safety in sports, justice in prizes etc are all important. One of the cruxes of the US fight against transwomen in women's sports is that women are losing scholarships intended for women because of this.

And also the speed in which you need to judge the danger. And what do you do if you come across a snake you have no knowledge of?

“But if it weren't for the propensity of certain men to behave in a certain way then a large part (although not all) of the objection to transwomen in women's spaces would not be relevant.”

Even if no male people harmed female people, do you think that if female people wanted privacy from male people in anyway that they should have that privacy?

I once sat in a bar and listened to a TW talk non-stop for about 40 minutes about being trans. It was literally their only topic of conversation and was more or less a monologue.

In the spirit of being vaguely liberal I am willing to believe there are people who genuinely believe they have been born into the wrong body (even though I don't quite see how that works, logically, and suspect it is a symptom not a cause of a mental disorder) but I absolutely cannot see why someone would want to parade around looking obviously like a man in a wig/dress/leggings (as many of them do) unless their primary purpose was exhibitionism. And I hugely object to being forced into an "emperor's new clothes" situation.

Yes of course. Privacy and single-sex spaces are crucial for all the reasons @Grammarnut just listed, but I was focusing specifically on the utter hypocrisy of TRAs venting their spleen on TERFs rather than those transwomen who go around sexually assaulting women. Clearly the former are nasty, nasty people, whereas the latter are just reacting to being treated so badly by society or some such apologist nonsense.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying

And while you are right, in that respect, why don’t they focus on those males? Misogyny. Then coming equal place, fear of negative ramifications for upsetting a group that has nurtured a ‘most vulnerable’ descriptor that enters into most commentary. Which is when you break it down in this instance, just more misogyny.

I think I could have worded the bit you quoted better - I just wanted to focus on the most heinous thing that (some) TW do - and of course there are many other important reasons not to allow them unfettered access to female spaces.

Yes, I think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors. The idea that anyone who isn't allowed to transition will commit suicide, for example, which apparently (according to Helen Joyce and Kathleen Stock) is simply untrue.

It blows my mind that they say they want access to women's facilities because it's safer for them. That's the whole reason we don't want men in women's private spaces, because it's safer not to have them there.

Offhand, I wouldn't know an adder from a grass snake and that's in the relatively low-threat snake environment of the UK.

I should think that if the TV show incorporated a task such as walking through a landscape populated by unknown snakes with no inside knowledge as to their status nor their temperament and feeding preferences, that might create similar hesitations.

But I don't want to overburden the throwaway proposal for a TV pitch.

Does anyone recall the very good piece that uses the analogy of trains, platforms, and the perception of safety?

I speak and listen to many, many people - about half of them are women - every day as part of normal life; with my family, my friends, at social gatherings and in the workplace.

We give the obvious transphobic bores a wide berth where we can and roll our eyes whenever someone gets that thunderous doom in their eyes indicating a brewing rant about wokeness or the regurgitation of Daily Mail / Telegraph talking points. It happens periodically, sometimes in the workplace in ways that can be quite unpleasant to have to deal with, but when it boils over like this it's generally an opportunity to identify deeply unpleasant people to avoid while having a good laugh afterwards. You have to laugh, really - it's the best way of staying healthy, especially when you're catching indirect splash damage from it whenever it happens.

It's obvious that there's a lot of hidden 'what you are when nobody is looking' transphobia simmering beneath the surface as well, especially regarding non-binary people, which is a lot more complicated to deal with and I have a lot more sympathy for people who get confused and frustrated with the whole thing. It's important that we strive to align ourselves with compassionate and inclusive principles, however, even if we don't always get everything right.

@ButterflyHatched can you define transphobia? Because all we want is single sex spaces. Is that transphobia?
I call it men phobia. I get it when we men are in the wrong place or team.

Men who disregard female boundaries are scary.

@ButterflyHatched nearly all sexual crimes are committed by males with female victims. It is completely rational for females not to want any males to be present when they are undressing or otherwise in a vulnerable position. This is not transphobia it is self preservation.

It is beyond naive for anyone to suggest that predatory males would not take advantage of any loophole that allows them access to females. Unfortunately predatory males don’t have “I’m a wrong‘un” tattooed on their forehead so all males get excluded.

If you ever read “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin de Becker one major red flag he highlights is the male who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries and doesn’t accept when women say no.

Listens to women when forced.

Can't help but explain in the next para that those whose views you disagree with will be given 'a wide berth', ridiculed and avoided.

This is because you have decided these people are 'transphobic bores', which you expand on by some stories about how awful they are and how everyone hates them and laughs at them really.

Finishing up with a weak nod towards 'compassionate' and 'inclusive', excepting presumably those whom you've decided to identify as 'deeply unpleasant people to avoid'.

But I think the answer to this is simple.

They are all male. Women are the 'other'. They will never agree with women who do not submit to the wishes of males.

It's one of the ways we can tell who the women are.

@ButterflyHatched

Are 'transphobic bores' people who know who the males are?

Why shouldn't women set our own boundaries?

The tables have turned and (for now) bigotry is no longer as socially acceptable as it was.

This isn't a me thing; it's a general thing we do when we encounter tedious people with toxic views that have no place in the modern world.

I have a lot more sympathy for fellow feminists practicing a strain that happens to exclude me; my experiences have overwhelmingly been that we can find a common ground once we speak in person and the reality of my own existence becomes clear.

The ridicule is a useful tool for when the feminism is revealed to just be a cover for a whole package of other unpleasantness.

Ridicule is a weapon long used by men of the patriarchy against uppity women. Good to see Butterfly keeping up the traditions.

And yes of course there should be no men in women's spaces however they identify or however 'safely Nigel' they are. Who on earth wants to strip in front of random men in public changing rooms?

The evidence doesn't support your assertion @ButterflyHatched.

You can't define transphobe and you can't define bigot either I'll bet.

Court cases are going in favour of sex realists. In the US trans issues are at the bottom of the priority list.

DEI at work is shifting, workplaces are widening up to the unquestioned activism that has been allowed to flourish.

More and more are speaking up.

I suspect 'transphobic bores' are people who don't believe that any male person can become a female person. Regardless of how their male body had any medical condition, and regardless of how many perceived 'commonalities' might be ponderously discovered with face to face discussion...