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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 00:50

Waitwhat23 · 02/12/2024 22:35

Ah yes, the mysterious cabal of secret inboxers. Too feart to actually defend their position on a board where they're completely anonymous but perfectly happy to fuck over women because, you know, mustn't hurt men's special lady feelings!

You are of course completely correct and nobody ever reads this board for any other reason than you, my mistake.

Datun · 03/12/2024 01:56

Oh come off it. The genuine interest to learn about trans women died about a decade ago.

You just never stop centering yourself! Even on a feminist board, where women are discussing keeping men out of female spaces

Ericaequites · 03/12/2024 05:33

I am a proud American lesbian TERF. Chicks don’t have dicks; never had and never will.
Michael Bailey and others have shown nearly all trans identified men are autogynophilic. Most are also wicked narcissists who don’t care about women born women and girls as long as they can enter women’s changing rooms, toilets, and athletic events.

wincarwoo · 03/12/2024 06:51

What is there to learn about TW?

We want single sex spaces. We don't have to validate males with special identities. Nothing we learn will change our minds.

Seems you're on your own with this one Butterfly. I don't see everyone flooding to back you up as you insist.

Trans activists aren't normally shy in coming forward.

NecessaryScene · 03/12/2024 06:57

As a man, I do wonder how you get into the headspace that you'll come into a feminist forum on Mumsnet as a man, and expect headpats. For your woman impersonation.

It is possible to be a man without being a complete dick, you know.

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 07:02

Why take no for an answer when you have an inbox full of fantastic cool girls urging you to educate all the stupid recalcitrant women on the deeply fascinating subject of yourself?

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 07:21

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 00:50

You are of course completely correct and nobody ever reads this board for any other reason than you, my mistake.

Well, we know that it's used for screenshots for Twitter (never links, I wonder why) and for the use of interns for doxxing purposes but frankly, both of those as as cowardly as the secret inboxers.

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 07:23

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 00:36

Oh come off it. The genuine interest to learn about trans women died about a decade ago.

This board is so infamous for its toxic brand that workplaces started dropping collaboration initiatives with mumsnet over it half a decade ago.

Would that be around the time women starting getting told to die in a grease fire if they mentioned even vague concerns about self id?

Funny that.

AlisonDonut · 03/12/2024 07:27

'Hello fellow feminists'.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 07:57

ArabellaScott · 03/12/2024 07:02

Why take no for an answer when you have an inbox full of fantastic cool girls urging you to educate all the stupid recalcitrant women on the deeply fascinating subject of yourself?

Exactly!

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 07:59

NecessaryScene · 03/12/2024 06:57

As a man, I do wonder how you get into the headspace that you'll come into a feminist forum on Mumsnet as a man, and expect headpats. For your woman impersonation.

It is possible to be a man without being a complete dick, you know.

😁

Helleofabore · 03/12/2024 08:05

Of course, we know there are quite a few reasons for some particular posters coming to this board to, what seem to be, razz the posters who disagree with your opinions about gender. On a board which happens to be mostly female posters.

It is all about getting a supply of whatever the desired tonic is, sadly it is not about sharing information for some.

LunaNorth · 03/12/2024 08:12

@ButterflyHatched “indirect splash damage” is indeed a terrible thing.

An easy way to avoid it is to keep blokes out of your toilet.

Myalternate · 03/12/2024 08:19

Put simply, Men will never be able to understand women because they will never,ever be women.
Tough.

Datun · 03/12/2024 09:06

wincarwoo · 03/12/2024 06:51

What is there to learn about TW?

We want single sex spaces. We don't have to validate males with special identities. Nothing we learn will change our minds.

Seems you're on your own with this one Butterfly. I don't see everyone flooding to back you up as you insist.

Trans activists aren't normally shy in coming forward.

What is there to learn about TW?

IKR?

It's so remarkably ego centric. (Something the women in the transwidows film made quite clear was a defining characteristic of their exes).

There are dozens of reasons why various men want in women's spaces, and I don't give a flying fuck about any of them. What woman would??

There's no justification for their presence. I'm going out a limb and say having to listen to a man tell you why you're wrong, he's right and there's nothing you can do about it, isn't going to be number one on many women's past-time list

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 09:48

RethinkingLife: Does anyone recall the very good piece that uses the analogy of trains, platforms, and the perception of safety?

I'm not sure this is what you meant but it is what came to mind from your description and is from someone since kicked off their platform a while ago for knowing what a woman is, so can't link to it. I thought it was good so saved it:

An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.
Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path. What do you do?

The answer is obvious, hopefully. You scream. You shout. You wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. I’m not sure if I am. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they exist as mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the whole truth is never so simple.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take your time and capture all the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, hove in the grey space between the two categories. If you can’t even explain why the man on the tracks is alive, what “alive” even means, then what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhaps no moral truths exist, and your efforts to save him are completely irrational. Can you be sure it’s right to intervene, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

Looking back, what started out so simple ends up quite complex —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks is ground into bits. Not because your position is unassailable. Because even bringing it up makes you an asshole.

That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? If so, the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept.

So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to deciding which perspective gets ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until we suddenly decided we don’t even know what the fuck we meant this whole time.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim for the imprecision of their screams. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the sound of grinding bone. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions that don’t make a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? Does P = NP? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave women alone.

Written by
Gender Detective

popeydokey · 03/12/2024 10:31

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 00:36

Oh come off it. The genuine interest to learn about trans women died about a decade ago.

This board is so infamous for its toxic brand that workplaces started dropping collaboration initiatives with mumsnet over it half a decade ago.

This sort of bollocks is what I mean. I can tell you that I came to MN to find out why the "transphobia". Yes, it was several years ago. I wanted to tell everyone why they were wrong. I was sure there was some logic to the trans side. The more I interacted with people claiming to represent the trans side (self-id, TWAW - not simply 'wanting to be the opposite sex'), the more I realised they were, to put it bluntly, dishonest, sexist (assuming unquestioningly that "woman" means some kind of " feminine" personality traits) or at least happy to go along with sexism.

You can tell me I'm lying about my own experiences but that would be a false statement. I genuinely thought I was missing something. Each time you post something dishonest or try and change the subject, you reinforce my opinion that you have no basis in fairness, equality or truth. Or any understanding of women.

I mean, you talk about women and men yet as far as I can tell you don't think there is any set thing - any feeling you can actually name or describe, any trait, any aspect of any person - that would differentiate between the two.

I think you have an idea but you are afraid to try and communicate it clearly, because we would all see that it's deeply regressive.

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 11:14

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 09:48

RethinkingLife: Does anyone recall the very good piece that uses the analogy of trains, platforms, and the perception of safety?

I'm not sure this is what you meant but it is what came to mind from your description and is from someone since kicked off their platform a while ago for knowing what a woman is, so can't link to it. I thought it was good so saved it:

An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.
Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path. What do you do?

The answer is obvious, hopefully. You scream. You shout. You wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. I’m not sure if I am. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they exist as mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the whole truth is never so simple.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take your time and capture all the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, hove in the grey space between the two categories. If you can’t even explain why the man on the tracks is alive, what “alive” even means, then what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhaps no moral truths exist, and your efforts to save him are completely irrational. Can you be sure it’s right to intervene, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

Looking back, what started out so simple ends up quite complex —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks is ground into bits. Not because your position is unassailable. Because even bringing it up makes you an asshole.

That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? If so, the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept.

So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to deciding which perspective gets ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until we suddenly decided we don’t even know what the fuck we meant this whole time.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim for the imprecision of their screams. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the sound of grinding bone. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions that don’t make a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? Does P = NP? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave women alone.

Written by
Gender Detective

Brilliant, stirring words.

Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

RethinkingLife · 03/12/2024 11:19

BH - Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

BH, never failing to identify BH's identity with the most marginalised and brutalised.

Bunbury would tell me it's instinctive entitlement at the heart of it and disdain to ever consider the perspective of women.

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 11:49

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 11:14

Brilliant, stirring words.

Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

It would be lovely if you could rewrite those stirring words replacing women/biological sex with that "marginalised minority" of yours and get it to make sense. It might help me understand your position better.

Datun · 03/12/2024 12:42

ButterflyHatched · 03/12/2024 11:14

Brilliant, stirring words.

Now imagine they were being employed in defence of marginalised minorities rather than the people dedicating their lives to brutalising them in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

Yeah, men who disregard women's consent are in the minority, and they should absolutely be marginalised.

Is that another one of your 'convincing arguments'?!

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 14:56

in the name of defending the comfort of one particular type of women.

Had to laugh at this. 'TERFS' are for all women.

But not men. They aren't a 'type' of woman, however they choose to identify.

Chanting TWAW and expecting women to bow their heads and acquiesce has backfired spectacularly for entitled, demanding men.

wincarwoo · 03/12/2024 14:58

@Butterfly marginalised people don't change language to suits their needs and threaten those that don't comply. They don't arrogantly argue with women that their rights trump theirs. They don't demand total compliance to fiction at the expense of fact.

Nobody has to go along with this double delusion.

ILikeDungs · 03/12/2024 15:26

I'm hoping BH has gone off to rewrite An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real to the tune of Trans.

It may take some time.

Swipe left for the next trending thread