Is it too early for a post mortem?

[Appalonia]

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

“Demonstrably lifesaving treatment banned offhand while knowing full well what the devastating consequences will be.”

Have you read the Cass report? If you’re talking about ‘trans affirming treatment’ then you are misinformed. If you’re talking about treatment for women’s reproductive health, then you have a point (but has mixed it up with a bunch of other stuff which isn’t really relevant for women)

I have indeed read the Cass report stitch-up that we all saw coming and have plentiful evidence of posters on here crowing about the unreleased recommendations of years in advance.

I was one of the people its researchers neglected to listen to about their own childhood experiences of the treatment it was then used as a pretext to ban.

I see. Not even a glimmer of self awareness.

Yes, I will point out that you are male and that if you have needs that you don’t feel are covered by male toilets or gender neutral toilets, you need to find a solution that works that are not female single sex spaces. Because you are male as you point out.

Female toilets are not there to make male people happy or safe. They are also not there to provide any other type of utility to male people above 8 years old. So, yes, I will point out that male people should not be there.

But there is that catastrophising cognitive distortion again this time combined with a falsehood.

“You'll just say none of it was real because it was experienced by a male.”

No. I would have no grounds to say it was not ‘real’. That is a false assertion by you. Of course you are real, of course your use of female single sex provision is ‘real’. You were in the toilets. You used them.

And no, male people would not be using female single sex spaces if they truly respect female people’s needs. And no male people should be using those spaces after about 8 years old.

“Demonstrably lifesaving treatment banned offhand while knowing full well what the devastating consequences will be.”

Eh? That seems rather opposite to what has been shown by the research. I mean, there was that Yale study that made the conclusion that had to be retracted because the evidence didn’t support it.

I see we're at the tantrum stage, hurling around allegations about Trump, Brexit, the Cass report "stitch up" and lots of "anti trans" allegations while completely ignoring all the powerful and nuanced posts from women about the reality of the lives of women and girls.

Oh well, never mind.

The Cass researchers didn’t neglect you. The people who did your original treatment but did no long term research or follow up neglected you. The adult clinics who blocked the Cass review neglected you. Presumably you’re completely on board with the next stage of research looking at data from adult gender clinics?

Will you be honest? Will you explain how you have a multitude of health problems requiring several medications, health problems you describe as the “sword of Damocles” dangling over your head? Will you be honest about how you still think you’ve changed sex?

I doubt it.

Plus ca change ain’t it?

I think the readers should feel lucky that they are getting the full treatment now.

For reference, I don’t see a “nasty original-sin infested trans woman” in the toilets/changing room - I see a man. Given that men commit almost all sexual crimes, and I’m obviously intending to be in a state of undress, you may be surprised to hear that feels really unsafe. No consideration of original sin etc (or other hyperbole) required

Took the words right out of my mouth.

OK, I'm going to take the risk of being put on the naughty step.

I have read hundreds of posts by @ButterflyHatched as have we all and I have a real difficulty. One the one hand Butters would have me believe that I wouldn't take a second glance if they were stood next to me at the handbaisins in the ladies loos because Butters is a woman. However, on the other hand, Butters has to navigate society because there are nasty transphobes who fail to perceive Butters as a woman. Both conditions cannot be true.

But were any of those experiences because you were female!

Keep going, you're doing so well. You can solve the puzzle! I believe in you!.

All you need to do is misrepresent what I say a teensy little bit more.

I had hoped that you might have some capacity to understand or at least imagine what it is like to spend your childhood and most of your adulthood navigating a world that so comprehensively despises you by default even if it doesn't yet realise you are a member of a hated minority group, but obviously it was foolish to expect that when we could have derision, disbelief and mockery instead.

If you’d spent the last 25 years putting energy into solving your own puzzle, you wouldn’t be here on this forum still pouring out a load of inconsistencies to justify your own selfish demands. How can I solve the puzzle when you can’t even solve it yourself?

I'd be careful about throwing those stones in a house like this

The last decade of your life has been one long tantrum ever since you discovered trans people not only exist but expect to be treated like human beings.

You have just spent ten pages dismissing, berating, abusing and gaslighting a member of the same marginalised minority group that you have dedicated years of your life to stripping legal protections from and ejecting from society. Great job.

You succeeded. You're now the face of an international hate movement dedicated to destroying people like me. The evangelist right uses your words to ban our treatment, strip our legal protections and drive us from society. Nazis salute openly and turn up to your rallies while repeating your slogans. Well fucking done.

I hope the satisfaction of a well earned victory keeps you warm and provides you with companionship and love this Christmas.

Mumsnet is generally not a hugbox and FWR is most definitely not a hugbox.

Posts made in broadcast-only mode don't garner sympathy here. I have no time for, or interest in, labile posts ignoring and misrepresenting women or feminism.

Oh you mean the study that found that life is still difficult after transition because technology is imperfect and transphobia still exists? No shit, any one of us could have told you that if you'd listen.

So there’s no “demonstrably lifesaving treatment” then, is there. It can’t be demonstrated because “technology isn’t perfect and transphobia still exists.”

Another butterfly paradox.

When have you showed any compassion to women, ButterflyHatched, when the very real and pressing daily realities of being a female is said to you? When? Women on here have explained to you why women and girls are vulnerable and need single sex spaces. No reply of acknowledgement from you. Women (including myself) explained we're rape victims - no response from you, not even a line of acknowledgement. Nothing. Silence.

You give us zero compassion, not even a line or word of acknowledgement. Why do you deserve compassion, but a rape victim like myself does not even deserve one word as acknowledgement? It says a lot about you as a person and as a male with male entitlement and how little awareness you have of the needs of anyone except your own.

Oh. So are you now saying that this ‘life saving’ treatment you talk about has not yet been developed?

Another inconsistency then like the others over the years. Because the current life limiting and potentially life shortening extreme body modifications show no improvement of mental health, and are particularly brutal for female people.

And all for a philosophical belief! I mean, it used to be said that it was making physical changes as a treatment for a mental health condition. But no mental health condition needed for that ‘life saving’ treatment now. And it is offensive to mention anything about psychological conditions.

So now we have a group of people, with a philosophical belief that they are the opposite sex or no sex or any other of the 130+ genders getting extreme body modifications that require life long medical treatment being still described as ‘life saving’.

And I take it then that we haven’t missed a new development or a new study showing that the treatments you insist are life saving are improving mental health.

But that you want more children to receive this medical treatment.

And you, personally, even counsel them as a respected elder about life and by being there talking to them, you exemplify that treatment supposed success

You believe the treatment is life saving. Medical experts have stated this is not the case and that there are significant issues that should be investigated thoroughly. Also now being transgender is now only a philosophical belief and what other philosophical belief receives life long physical medical treatments?

I don’t think I have missed anything, have I?

I don’t believe there ever was an intention with some posters to ‘engage’ even from the start. Like compassion, communication with some people who come to post on this board only goes one way.

In saying that, all those reading and interacting with these posts and particularly those over time do learn a huge amount from the interactions. We keep being told we need to get to know people with transgender identities, and through these interactions we certainly ‘get to know’ them.

It is another of those inconsistencies that some groups hate being exposed. Apparently, we are supposed to believe that getting to know someone face to face is going to be different to getting to know someone from on-line interaction.

I think we are supposed to believe that someone’s on line interactions over time are not indicative of their true thoughts on the topic. I think we are supposed to believe that how they interact on line over time is a separate persona and not really them. I could not really understand why else people keep saying to us that we need to get to know more people with transgender identities in real life and not on line.

I doubt the ones we interact with on line are any different in person.

Of course, I know that people mean get to know different people with transgender identities because they are not like the ones posting on social media or who are policy influencers. Yet, it is the ones influencing policy that we need to get to know because they are shaping the policy, particularly policies impacting our own children. And don’t forget that this poster says they are in that position of influencing children’s decision through offering active counsel in their community group.

The ‘you need to get to know them in real life’ is just another inconsistency that ends up rendering the concept to be incoherent.

All the words in the world, no matter how genuinely felt or respectfully expressed, can't change the fact that some humans have female bodies and for those of us that do there are physical, emotional and social consequences.

It's not an act of hate to say we want this fact about ourselves to be recognised and we believe we have the moral right to put in place physical, social and political measures to support us as we live in a society that is still organised around male norms, male wants and male expectations, whether that is a female-only lesbian social event, a female-only STEM mentoring group, a female-only rape support group or a female-only private space for personal care.

It IS an act of hate to say we should not be allowed these things.

Oh you mean the study that found that life is still difficult after transition because technology is imperfect and transphobia still exists? No shit, any one of us could have told you that if you'd listen.

Technology is imperfect = it's not actually possible to change sex.

Transphobia still exists = most people, especially some very disobedient and unsympathetic women, don't buy that it is possible to change sex or that males can be women and aren't prepared to act like they do believe it is, because it is harmful to us.

Any one of us could have told you that if you'd listen.